Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2020 22:21:31 GMT
I think they've played "The Night Comes Down" too I doubt it, since the song's supposed to have been pretty much written in the studio when they went to the Music Centre in Wembley (i.e. December 1971). It must have been added to the live set in 1972.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 0:49:24 GMT
OIQFC Magazine, spring 1980, a German fan asked about the song and the reply he got (presumably from Brian) included the words 'It is the first track the band really created in the studio'.
By the way, December 1971 is also after Smile disbanded. Not 'right' after, but after, so we're both correct as far as the available evidence shows.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2020 19:18:18 GMT
Sure. When dealing with two or more conflicting sources (e.g. Brian saying SSOR was released in 1972 vs loads of evidence that it was released in 1974, or Roger saying there was no DSMN video vs all of us having watched it), the sensible thing is to go with the most verifiable one.
What's the source for TNCD being written before December 1971, then?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2020 12:46:02 GMT
Exactly: if you're gonna dismiss comments coming from the band (which I admit may be wrong), then something written by someone on Wikipedia is even less worthy of our trust.
|
|
|
Post by ThomasQuinn on Aug 4, 2020 12:07:08 GMT
Exactly: if you're gonna dismiss comments coming from the band (which I admit may be wrong), then something written by someone on Wikipedia is even less worthy of our trust. Well yes but that's the only known evidence. I don't think Brian wrote it at the studio, they were in De Lane Lea for a short time. Writting of the song was taking so much time from him, so I don't think he wrote it in De Lane Lea. It's surely written in 1970, but surely not in De Lane Lea. I think Brian was talking about "My Fairy King" that they made it at the studio but "My Fairy King" also written in 1970 or probably before that. It is *not* evidence. It is an unsourced claim. Just like the above post by you is not evidence, it is speculation.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2020 12:07:29 GMT
That's not 'the only known evidence' - on the contrary, that's not evidence at all.
Moreover, the argument from personal incredulity doesn't apply to real life. It's like saying, 'hey, I don't think Roger could sing a high B-flat, so it surely was varisped'. (By the way I do think he could sing it and there's plenty of evidence [real evidence, not something randomly appearing on Wikipedia] that he did, and he could sing higher than that as well).
They were at the Music Centre for several weeks, which is enough time to write a song.
There's absolutely nothing to support the theory that it was 'surely written in 1970'. Nothing at all. Absolutely and categorically nothing.
If you wanna be sceptic (and that's absolutely fine), then don't fall for 'I won't believe official claims as they can be wrong but I'll buy into something even weaker just because it's on a site anyone could edit with or without knowledge or sources'. It makes absolutely no sense.
In other words, there is evidence: an official claim clearly stating it was written in the studio (which corresponds to December 1971 at the Music Centre in Wembley, London). It could be wrong because people can misremember, etc., but what could/would/should trump it is better evidence rather than unsourced Wikipedia nonsense.
|
|
|
Post by ThomasQuinn on Aug 5, 2020 9:46:25 GMT
You just keep repeating that line, but it is based on nothing except your gut feeling. Conversely, there IS evidence for the hypothesis that it was written in the studio. That makes your position very unconvincing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2020 15:01:46 GMT
But anyway I don't think it's exactly written at De Lane Lea. Based on what exactly? - Wikipedia? That's not a believable source at all. - Your own feelings? Those do not count. - The alleged unlikelihood of a song being written in such an allegedly short period of time? They were in and out for weeks, more than enough to write a song ('Crazy Little Thing' was written in ten minutes, the overture to Mozart's Don Giovanni was scored mere hours before it premiered). I do completely agree that witness testimonies are not always accurate and that people can lie or misremember, but that doesn't justify buying into even weaker evidence such as unsourced anonymous online edits or appealing to personal incredulity. The following statements are perfectly reasonable and sensible: - Witness testimonies can be wrong, so it's better if there's some other type of evidence to support those claims. - Witness testimonies can be wrong, so if there's any contradictory evidence [evidence, not Wikipedia] then it's fair play going for the latter. - Witness testimonies can be wrong, so it makes sense to be cautious if that's all there is. The following statements, on the contrary, do not make any sense: - Witness testimonies can be wrong, so it follows that they automatically are wrong. - Witness testimonies can be wrong, so I'd rather go with Wikipedia or Reddit or something some random person posted online. - Witness testimonies can be wrong, which renders testimonies from non-witnesses right. - Witness testimonies can be wrong, so I can freely dismiss them especially if they happen to contradict my personal feelings/incredulity/ignorance.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 0:50:18 GMT
We're not EXACTLY sure that it's written at De Lane Lea in 1971 We're not. However: - That we're not sure doesn't mean we should believe some random unsourced Wikipedia article anyone (with way less credibility than those who were actually there) could've written. - That we're not sure doesn't mean it's automatically false. - If you're gonna be so strict about a witness testimony (and there's nothing wrong with that - quite the contrary), then why believe something which is even weaker? It's like being a sceptic about wearing masks but then buying into flat-earth conspiracy theories, MLM and anti-vaccine hoaxes. We're not sure, but we've got one piece of evidence specifically claiming so. Until better evidence arises (and Wikipedia is not by any stretch of the imagination better evidence than the author of the song), then it's the most likely possibility; the 1970 claim, by contrast, has absolutely nothing going for it. Nothing at all.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 1:09:35 GMT
Yet you accept it was allegedly written in 1970 without any evidence...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 1:19:41 GMT
You're saying it's written in 1970 without any evidence whatsoever, which is way worse than 'without any strong evidence'.
|
|
NathanH
Ploughman
Posts: 495
Likes: 426
|
Post by NathanH on Aug 6, 2020 7:33:13 GMT
I don't want to say much since (no offence) the debate about when The Night Comes Down was written is ruining this thread. But the one thing I'll say is that John Deacon said in an interview once, I think one of the ones he was sat in the car talking to Bob Harris possibly shown in Days Of Our Lives and/or From Rags To Rhapsody, that most of the material written for the first album existed before he joined the group. If TNCD was indeed created before he joined then it seems likeky to have 1970.
The one thing I'll say about De Lane Lea is did Queen know how long they were going to be in the studio for? It seems more unlikely to have written something when without knowing the end time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 11:40:54 GMT
I don't want to say much since (no offence) the debate about when The Night Comes Down was written is ruining this thread. But the one thing I'll say is that John Deacon said in an interview once, I think one of the ones he was sat in the car talking to Bob Harris possibly shown in Days Of Our Lives and/or From Rags To Rhapsody, that most of the material written for the first album existed before he joined the group. If TNCD was indeed created before he joined then it seems likeky to have 1970. The one thing I'll say about De Lane Lea is did Queen know how long they were going to be in the studio for? It seems more unlikely to have written something when without knowing the end time. Keyword: most. As far as Louis Austin (someone who, unlike us, was actually there) said, yes, they knew they'd be in and out for weeks and they knew they'd have enough time to do a lot of stuff.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 11:42:48 GMT
I don't want to say much since (no offence) the debate about when The Night Comes Down was written is ruining this thread. But the one thing I'll say is that John Deacon said in an interview once, I think one of the ones he was sat in the car talking to Bob Harris possibly shown in Days Of Our Lives and/or From Rags To Rhapsody, that most of the material written for the first album existed before he joined the group. If TNCD was indeed created before he joined then it seems likeky to have 1970. The one thing I'll say about De Lane Lea is did Queen know how long they were going to be in the studio for? It seems more unlikely to have written something when without knowing the end time. Thanks for proving that it's written in 1970. I've said it's written in 1970 but this long discussion began and I didn't start the subject that "TNCD" written in De Lane Lea actually. what do you have to say now @sebastian ? No, that's not 'proving' anything. You seem to have very strange standards for what constitutes evidence: - An official claim by people who were there: Automatically dismissed because they've been wrong in other instances. - Another official claim by someone who was there, but this time it happens to potentially support your pet hypothesis (even though it still doesn't): Oh, this one's proof! - An unsourced Wikipedia article (which has at least one other potential mistake, by the way): Oh, this counts as evidence, of course!
|
|
NathanH
Ploughman
Posts: 495
Likes: 426
|
Post by NathanH on Aug 6, 2020 12:12:53 GMT
I don't want to say much since (no offence) the debate about when The Night Comes Down was written is ruining this thread. But the one thing I'll say is that John Deacon said in an interview once, I think one of the ones he was sat in the car talking to Bob Harris possibly shown in Days Of Our Lives and/or From Rags To Rhapsody, that most of the material written for the first album existed before he joined the group. If TNCD was indeed created before he joined then it seems likeky to have 1970. The one thing I'll say about De Lane Lea is did Queen know how long they were going to be in the studio for? It seems more unlikely to have written something when without knowing the end time. Keyword: most. As far as Louis Austin (someone who, unlike us, was actually there) said, yes, they knew they'd be in and out for weeks and they knew they'd have enough time to do a lot of stuff. When I said most I meant My Fairy King and I feel like I read somewhere that Seven Seas Of Rhye was created in the studio too at least the lyrics were and the middle section. The Night Comes Down just looks and feels like it's one of those songs that was written before Queen formed even though that is factually wrong, I'd still be surprised if it wasn't written until De Lane Lea.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 12:21:34 GMT
But that's just cherry-picking according to what fits personal bias.
'Seaside Rendezvous' looks and feels like it was written in the 1920s, but it was written in the 1970s. So 'looks and feels like' is not sound evidence.
There's still the point of dismissing one claim by live witnesses directly stating 'The Night Comes Down' was 'the first track the band really created in the studio' but then taking another witness statement (which doesn't refer to this song specifically but to the album in general) as 'evidence'. Either they both count or neither does - and, in either case, an unsourced Wikipedia edit does not add to either possibility as it's far, far, far more likely to be pure guesswork.
|
|
NathanH
Ploughman
Posts: 495
Likes: 426
|
Post by NathanH on Aug 6, 2020 12:33:58 GMT
But that's just cherry-picking according to what fits personal bias. 'Seaside Rendezvous' looks and feels like it was written in the 1920s, but it was written in the 1970s. So 'looks and feels like' is not sound evidence. I don't mean in that sense I mean technical wise. The lyrics aren't very strong compared to later compositions or even songs on the album.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 13:41:16 GMT
@sebastian why you're insisting us that it's written in 1971? Sorry we can't accept your words and I won't accept them,I don't believe in Wikipedia so much but still I know it's written in 1970. Now I won't continue this discussion about when and where it's written cause it's ruining this thread. End of the discussion. My point is not that it's written in 1971, but that the available evidence suggests so. If there's evidence that it was written before that (evidence, not an unsourced Wikipedia article with potentially more mistakes), then of course I'll change my position. As for 'I still know it's written in 1970': no, you don't know, and neither do I - the best we can do is examine what evidence there is (evidence, not Wikipedia or personal incredulity) and that may give us some context into what probably happened and when and where, that's all. And the available evidence suggests it was written in the studio, which corresponds to December 1971. Of course, if there's evidence (evidence, not Wikipedia) that it precedes those sessions or that it precedes John Deacon joining the band, obviously I'll accept it, but with evidence, not with Wikipedia or 'I don't think so, therefore it's not true' claims.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 13:42:07 GMT
But that's just cherry-picking according to what fits personal bias. 'Seaside Rendezvous' looks and feels like it was written in the 1920s, but it was written in the 1970s. So 'looks and feels like' is not sound evidence. I don't mean in that sense I mean technical wise. The lyrics aren't very strong compared to later compositions or even songs on the album. You know what could explain weak throwaway lyrics? Having been (at least partially) created in the studio, which is what happened according to those who, unlike us, were there.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 14:00:37 GMT
Then don't, nobody's forcing you to. To quote a 1971 song you may have probably heard, 'The black and the white distinctively colouring holding the world inside.'
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 14:21:09 GMT
I was quoting a song which was, as far as the evidence shows, written in 1971. It's titled 'The Night Comes Down' and, coincidentally, it mentions the perils of simply believing 'in everyone' (in this case, an unsourced Wikipedia article which may potentially contain other mistakes).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 15:46:42 GMT
You clearly do if your alleged 'evidence' is that, as you claimed yourself. Especially when you put it above a direct quote from the band - who, unlike you, unlike me, and unlike whoever edited that Wikipedia article, actually witnessed when 'The Night Comes Down' was, according to their own words, 'the first track the band really created in the studio'.
|
|
Mustapha Ibrahim
Politician
(Mustapha! Mustapha! Mustapha!) I've never heard of the bloody song!
Posts: 589
Likes: 551
|
Post by Mustapha Ibrahim on Aug 6, 2020 20:23:31 GMT
Um, guys, you do realize that most of the posts here are about this "TNCD" discussion? Just agree on the date and there. Done.
|
|
NathanH
Ploughman
Posts: 495
Likes: 426
|
Post by NathanH on Aug 6, 2020 20:32:10 GMT
Um, guys, you do realize that most of the posts here are about this "TNCD" discussion? Just agree on the date and there. Done. I agree I will quite happily delete my posts if the others do. I don't even though how it started though! Actually could one of the admin move them to a new thread is that possible? I think that's the best way out of here.
|
|
Mustapha Ibrahim
Politician
(Mustapha! Mustapha! Mustapha!) I've never heard of the bloody song!
Posts: 589
Likes: 551
|
Post by Mustapha Ibrahim on Aug 6, 2020 20:33:35 GMT
Seems like it. This isn't the "When was The Night Comes Down written? (Discussion)" thread.
|
|
Lord Fickle
Global Moderator
Posts: 20,869
Likes: 7,454
|
Post by Lord Fickle on Aug 6, 2020 21:40:38 GMT
New thread created, but please keep this to a discussion rather than a squabble.
|
|
NathanH
Ploughman
Posts: 495
Likes: 426
|
Post by NathanH on Aug 7, 2020 7:27:43 GMT
New thread created, but please keep this to a discussion rather than a squabble. Thank you, quickly done too.
|
|
|
Post by queen1970s on Aug 7, 2020 11:31:30 GMT
who copy and pasted all of my posts here without my permission???
|
|
Lord Fickle
Global Moderator
Posts: 20,869
Likes: 7,454
|
Post by Lord Fickle on Aug 7, 2020 12:54:16 GMT
who copy and pasted all of my posts here without my permission??? We don't need your permission to move posts. A request was made to split the thread, and that's what happened.
|
|
|
Post by queen1970s on Aug 7, 2020 13:39:02 GMT
who copy and pasted all of my posts here without my permission??? We don't need your permission to move posts. A request was made to split the thread, and that's what happened. Sorry but anyway you hadn't this right to post them here without my permission. My permission was important, I'll delete them right now
|
|