august
Satyr
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Post by august on Aug 24, 2020 11:55:19 GMT
MTS is an odd one. Soundwise, it doesn't really fit in with the heavyness of Queen1 (though Queen albums were always eclectic and moods & styles varied from track to track). Though there are quite a bit of acousctic guitars on Q1, MTS is just too light to fit in. To me it actually sounds a lot more in line with Smile songs. Brian's lead guitar sound especially reminds me of Smile songs like Step On Me.
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 24, 2020 12:25:17 GMT
I'll still call Great King Rat, Mad The Swine, Liar and Jesus religious because to my knowledge Queen didn't ever delve into the theme after the first album so they're more religious than 98% of other Queen songs. well Freddie didn't. but Brian did with Prophet Song. as for GKR - i've always had my doubts because of this verse: Now listen all you peoplePut out the good and keep the badDon't believe all you read in the BibleYou sinners get in lineSaints you leave far behindVery soon you're gonna be his disciplethe inference is one of promoting Satanism, rather than Christianity. You can't say that Freddie was in a satanism. I don't know how you can say this and I don't know why you say this about GKR
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Post by ThomasQuinn on Aug 24, 2020 12:41:27 GMT
Look here, queen1970s, it's becoming very clear that you have trouble understanding what other people are writing. That's ok, obviously not everyone is fluent in English. However, you are now (unintentionally, I'm sure) frequently derailing the conversation because you misunderstand something. Either refrain from responding or ask for clarification, but don't do this - "You can't say that Freddie was in a satanism. I don't know how you can say this and I don't know why you say this about GKR"
That's NOT what Brenski said. Brenski's saying that Great King Rat is about a very un-Christian subject. There is NO suggestion that Freddie was promoting Satanism, if anything, it's "The Great King Rat" who is showing Satanist tendencies.
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 24, 2020 14:17:42 GMT
Look here, queen1970s, it's becoming very clear that you have trouble understanding what other people are writing. That's ok, obviously not everyone is fluent in English. However, you are now (unintentionally, I'm sure) frequently derailing the conversation because you misunderstand something. Either refrain from responding or ask for clarification, but don't do this - "You can't say that Freddie was in a satanism. I don't know how you can say this and I don't know why you say this about GKR" That's NOT what Brenski said. Brenski's saying that Great King Rat is about a very un-Christian subject. There is NO suggestion that Freddie was promoting Satanism, if anything, it's "The Great King Rat" who is showing Satanist tendencies. No I'm understand what people are saying here but I think yes I just understood his says in a wrong way
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scandal
Tatterdemalion
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Post by scandal on Aug 24, 2020 22:05:51 GMT
Despite its musical qualities and popularity (or lack thereof) among fans, it's a jewel no matter what. It's the only complete, original unreleased song that was ever included in an official release, from their first album too. Only "Hangman" could become equally important if it ever sees the light of day. It does have historical significance as there hasn't been a similar case since then. The closest one is TMLWKY, which was included in MIH without modifications. "Feelings, Feelings" is not a complete song and "Let Me In Your Heart Again" was reworked. I'm reading that the only difference between the original MTS recording and the version released might reside in drum volume levels, but still my point stands. Interestingly, the only such release happened during Freddie's lifetime. Is it indicative of the band's attempts to dig through the archive in search of material, which could be reworked for the innuendo or later sessions? It's really odd how the song from the very start suddenly surfaced on one of the last releases. And that couldn't have happened without Freddie approval either. For me there is something amiss here.
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jo
Satyr
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Post by jo on Aug 25, 2020 1:11:20 GMT
Despite its musical qualities and popularity (or lack thereof) among fans, it's a jewel no matter what. It's the only complete, original unreleased song that was ever included in an official release, from their first album too. Only "Hangman" could become equally important if it ever sees the light of day. It does have historical significance as there hasn't been a similar case since then. The closest one is TMLWKY, which was included in MIH without modifications. "Feelings, Feelings" is not a complete song and "Let Me In Your Heart Again" was reworked. I'm reading that the only difference between the original MTS recording and the version released might reside in drum volume levels, but still my point stands. Interestingly, the only such release happened during Freddie's lifetime. Is it indicative of the band's attempts to dig through the archive in search of material, which could be reworked for the innuendo or later sessions? It's really odd how the song from the very start suddenly surfaced on one of the last releases. And that couldn't have happened without Freddie approval either. For me there is something amiss here. Hi everyone, first post but I've been reading all your great discussions for several weeks. (I hope I'm using this correctly to respond to the comment.) MTS is without a doubt based on the New Testament story of The Miracle of the Gadarene Swine. In addition to the story there are also many works of art based on this miracle including at the Tate Gallery. The adjective "gadarene" means to rush HEADLONG into something disastrous and I suspect that's the reason it was dusted off as the B side to that single.
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oreno
Ploughman
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Post by oreno on Aug 25, 2020 12:40:36 GMT
Despite its musical qualities and popularity (or lack thereof) among fans, it's a jewel no matter what. It's the only complete, original unreleased song that was ever included in an official release, from their first album too. Only "Hangman" could become equally important if it ever sees the light of day. It does have historical significance as there hasn't been a similar case since then. The closest one is TMLWKY, which was included in MIH without modifications. "Feelings, Feelings" is not a complete song and "Let Me In Your Heart Again" was reworked. I'm reading that the only difference between the original MTS recording and the version released might reside in drum volume levels, but still my point stands. Interestingly, the only such release happened during Freddie's lifetime. Is it indicative of the band's attempts to dig through the archive in search of material, which could be reworked for the innuendo or later sessions? It's really odd how the song from the very start suddenly surfaced on one of the last releases. And that couldn't have happened without Freddie approval either. For me there is something amiss here. The song was re-discovered while they (or Jackie Smith) were checking the archives for potential 'bonus tracks' - part of the new deal with Hollywood records was that the old albums would be expanded with extra content. MTS was the only unused old song the band selected for release, though they were going off a list rather than listening through everything themselves. I would guess it was added to Headlong to make it available to non US fans. It was indeed remixed, in Montreux, before release (presumably to 'fix' the drums but that's speculation). There were apparently other titles submitted to the band but of course nothing was used. (Source is the fan club magazine Summer 1991).
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georg
Global Moderator
wrote several books
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Post by georg on Aug 25, 2020 13:58:48 GMT
What I would give to have that list of titles...
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 25, 2020 14:03:47 GMT
What I would give to have that list of titles... I think it was a list of the unreleased and unused songs like: "Hangman", "Polar Bear", "Sandbox", "Silver Salmon" and "Mad The Swine"
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oreno
Ploughman
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Post by oreno on Aug 25, 2020 15:31:58 GMT
I should have noted also that the song was left off the original album because the band were unhappy with RTB's original drum sound(!).. or so the fan club version goes. drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Pt0qllIyIlajpeTOVV0DGgsXnyojlb9XI'm unsure of the provenance of the rumour that it was supposed to sit between GTR and MFK - with the end of GKR overlapping with an opening "I've" from MTS. This rumour has run and run over the years.
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 25, 2020 18:19:12 GMT
I think it's completely a rumour that Queen played "Mad The Swine" at Mid-South coliseum, Memphis on April 20th 1974. This fact just came from an unknown source.
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georg
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Post by georg on Aug 25, 2020 19:29:01 GMT
I think it's completely a rumour that Queen played "Mad The Swine" at Mid-South coliseum, Memphis on April 20th 1974. This fact just came from an unknown source. It came from Gary Taylor, who has researched Queen's live history fairly extensively, and has access to information none of us have. Unlike Greg Brooks, whose behavior has led me to doubt his reputation, Gary is a standup gentleman and I trust him unquestionably. If he says Mad the Swine was performed live, then I trust that he has proof to back that information up, even if he's not necessarily at liberty to reveal his sources.
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 25, 2020 20:27:11 GMT
I think it's completely a rumour that Queen played "Mad The Swine" at Mid-South coliseum, Memphis on April 20th 1974. This fact just came from an unknown source. It came from Gary Taylor, who has researched Queen's live history fairly extensively, and has access to information none of us have. Unlike Greg Brooks, whose behavior has led me to doubt his reputation, Gary is a standup gentleman and I trust him unquestionably. If he says Mad the Swine was performed live, then I trust that he has proof to back that information up, even if he's not necessarily at liberty to reveal his sources. I don't think we can trust Gary Taylor's says as he wasn't in Queen history he just collected the informations from live shows, if Greg Brook said that I could trust him cause he was Queen's archivist. but still I think that's a rumour, some reasons can be find that they didn't want to perform the song: 1. The song was an acoustic track 2. Queen didn't had any acoustic number until 1976 and since the song was an acoustic track they didn't perform it
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BrƎИsꓘi
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They called it paradise, I don't know why...You call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye.
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Aug 25, 2020 21:25:52 GMT
It came from Gary Taylor, who has researched Queen's live history fairly extensively, and has access to information none of us have. Unlike Greg Brooks, whose behavior has led me to doubt his reputation, Gary is a standup gentleman and I trust him unquestionably. If he says Mad the Swine was performed live, then I trust that he has proof to back that information up, even if he's not necessarily at liberty to reveal his sources. I don't think we can trust Gary Taylor's says as he wasn't in Queen history he just collected the informations from live shows, if Greg Brook said that I could trust him cause he was Queen's archivist. but still I think that's a rumour, some reasons can be find that they didn't want to perform the song: 1. The song was an acoustic track 2. Queen didn't had any acoustic number until 1976 and since the song was an acoustic track they didn't perform it couple of points: ♦ i'd be more inclined towards GT's account. after all Greg Brooks was responsible for "Queen: Live!" - a book with huge error strike rate - many of which were very basic obvious mistakes. ♦ MTS isn't really acoustic, is it? there's bass playing throughout (from 00:24 onwards), and what about the phasing/panning effects (00:25-00:29, 01:37-01:48) and electric guitar from 01:52 to end of song.
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 25, 2020 21:32:32 GMT
I don't think we can trust Gary Taylor's says as he wasn't in Queen history he just collected the informations from live shows, if Greg Brook said that I could trust him cause he was Queen's archivist. but still I think that's a rumour, some reasons can be find that they didn't want to perform the song: 1. The song was an acoustic track 2. Queen didn't had any acoustic number until 1976 and since the song was an acoustic track they didn't perform it couple of points: ♦ i'd be more inclined towards GT's account. after all Greg Brooks was responsible for "Queen: Live!" - a book with huge error strike rate - many of which were very basic obvious mistakes. ♦ MTS isn't really acoustic, is it? there's bass playing throughout (from 00:24 onwards), and what about the phasing/panning effects (00:25-00:29, 01:37-01:48) and electric guitar from 01:52 to end of song. It's mainly an acoustic track what I mean is that it's an acoustic track that most of time Brian was playing acoustic guitar on the song and he couldn't change to electric guitar on various parts in live shows. And I still will say that it's a rumour that the song performed live Greg Brook's book may has some errors but I can't trust to a person that wasn't in Queen's history at all
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NathanH
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Post by NathanH on Aug 25, 2020 21:57:42 GMT
White Queen could be described as acoustic and they still played that one live. And dare I bring it up again, The Night Comes Down. The former was played with piano to replace the acoustic guitar but it's hard to know how they did the latter without a recording of it live. TNCD was probably played in a similar way to Mad The Swine.
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 25, 2020 22:45:00 GMT
White Queen could be described as acoustic and they still played that one live. And dare I bring it up again, The Night Comes Down. The former was played with piano to replace the acoustic guitar but it's hard to know how they did the latter without a recording of it live. TNCD was probably played in a similar way to Mad The Swine. While Queen wasn't completely an acoustic track it has a lot of electric guitar at the end. And how do you know that how they performed TNCD and MTS?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2020 23:59:32 GMT
Once again, you're not researching - you're 'conclusion shopping', ignoring any source which may contradict your preconceived idea(s) of how you think or would've liked things to have been, rather than objectively gauging what's there and reaching a better conclusion based on evidence.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2020 2:07:33 GMT
Brian and co. transpose studio material to fit live atmospheres all of the time. I personally believe Gary’s revelation that they performed Mad The Swine live.
What does make me wonder is HOW it sounded live. This song falls into the oddity bin in regards to tuning when it comes to Queen’s usual standard tuning. The original recorded tuning is in Eflat. Unlike Fat Bottomed Girls which is just simply in drop tuning, which is one string - this is the entire instrument tuned half a step down. It would be near impossible to play the chords transposed down half a step if they’re in Standard. Shaping a Dmaj7 but down a fret to compensate being tuned to standard would be very very odd. So does that mean Freddie sang it a half step higher? Or did they just change the key entirely and if so, I wonder how that sounded.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2020 2:10:39 GMT
White Queen could be described as acoustic and they still played that one live. And dare I bring it up again, The Night Comes Down. The former was played with piano to replace the acoustic guitar but it's hard to know how they did the latter without a recording of it live. TNCD was probably played in a similar way to Mad The Swine. While Queen wasn't completely an acoustic track it has a lot of electric guitar at the end. And how do you know that how they performed TNCD and MTS? There is a setlist with Freddie’s handwriting and the fourth track in is The Night Comes Down. (Third picture with the caption “Queen in London” underneath it) www.queenconcerts.com/memorabilia/stage-setlists.html
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BrƎИsꓘi
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They called it paradise, I don't know why...You call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye.
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Aug 26, 2020 6:40:14 GMT
White Queen could be described as acoustic and they still played that one live. And dare I bring it up again, The Night Comes Down. The former was played with piano to replace the acoustic guitar but it's hard to know how they did the latter without a recording of it live. TNCD was probably played in a similar way to Mad The Swine. While Queen wasn't completely an acoustic track it has a lot of electric guitar at the end. by citing the electric guitar in White Queen, you've beat yourself with your own argument. as i pointed out earlier (which you disagreed with) - Mad The Swine isn't really acoustic, is it? there's bass playing throughout (from 00:24 onwards), and what about the phasing/panning effects (00:25-00:29, 01:37-01:48) and electric guitar from 01:52 to end of song. you can't cherry-pick how/when to include/exclude specific identical examples to support your argument, it's illogical and just doesn't work.
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Dimitris
Ploughman
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Post by Dimitris on Aug 26, 2020 8:02:14 GMT
For sometime, I have some thoughts that The Great king rat was a critical or a reference song to the water rats order which Brian is member along with many other artists and musicians.
As for Great king rat, Liar, My fairy King, Mad the swine and Jesus is like Freddie having inspiration from various sources from mythology, poetry and religious stories. Adding little salt and spice to provoke the conservatives..
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 26, 2020 9:06:29 GMT
While Queen wasn't completely an acoustic track it has a lot of electric guitar at the end. by citing the electric guitar in White Queen, you've beat yourself with your own argument. as i pointed out earlier (which you disagreed with) - Mad The Swine isn't really acoustic, is it? there's bass playing throughout (from 00:24 onwards), and what about the phasing/panning effects (00:25-00:29, 01:37-01:48) and electric guitar from 01:52 to end of song. you can't cherry-pick how/when to include/exclude specific identical examples to support your argument, it's illogical and just doesn't work. I didn't start any argument it's my opinion everyone should respect to each other's opinion so let's just do that and keep your opinion for yourself and stop talking so much about the live performance before it turns to an argument m
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 26, 2020 9:09:22 GMT
While Queen wasn't completely an acoustic track it has a lot of electric guitar at the end. And how do you know that how they performed TNCD and MTS? There is a setlist with Freddie’s handwriting and the fourth track in is The Night Comes Down. (Third picture with the caption “Queen in London” underneath it) www.queenconcerts.com/memorabilia/stage-setlists.htmlI know that. I mean how he knows how the song "TNCD" performed without any bootleg or recording of the song live. But now nevermind this all let's everyone just keep their opinions for themselves cause talking so much about this subject will turn it to an argument
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 26, 2020 9:11:20 GMT
Once again, you're not researching - you're 'conclusion shopping', ignoring any source which may contradict your preconceived idea(s) of how you think or would've liked things to have been, rather than objectively gauging what's there and reaching a better conclusion based on evidence. As I said it's my opinion. You can have your own opinion for yourself but you can't do something that everyone believe it and be agree with your opinion. As I said let's just forget this all and stop talking about live performance cause it's turning to an argument
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BrƎИsꓘi
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They called it paradise, I don't know why...You call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye.
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Aug 26, 2020 9:18:10 GMT
by citing the electric guitar in White Queen, you've beat yourself with your own argument. as i pointed out earlier (which you disagreed with) - Mad The Swine isn't really acoustic, is it? there's bass playing throughout (from 00:24 onwards), and what about the phasing/panning effects (00:25-00:29, 01:37-01:48) and electric guitar from 01:52 to end of song. you can't cherry-pick how/when to include/exclude specific identical examples to support your argument, it's illogical and just doesn't work. I didn't start any argument it's my opinion everyone should respect to each other's opinion so let's just do that and keep your opinion for yourself and stop talking so much about the live performance before it turns to an argument m you appear to struggle with English. i suggest you go and google the meaning of the word argument before you bandy about false accusations. FYI: argument noun
1. an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one.
example of use: "I've had an argument with my father"
2. a reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory.
example of use: "there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal"i was very clearly using the word argument as per "2" above. this isn't the first time you've accused people of things they haven't done - or shown hostility toward other posters. i politely suggest that before you launch in with a response next time. go and check the actual meanings of words and phrases used.
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BrƎИsꓘi
Administrator
They called it paradise, I don't know why...You call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye.
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Aug 26, 2020 9:21:44 GMT
another thing worth adding: many people too readily accept sites like lyricfind, lyrics.com, azlyrics etc as being accurate.
however, MTS is a glaring example of why we should trust our ears rather than lyric sites.
eg:
I woke up on the water just as before (lyricfind) (lyrics.com) (lyricsplayground.com) i think this should read: I walk upon the water just as before Jesus never woke up in a lake or river. but the 3 of 4 Gospels tell us he "walked upon the water" at the Sea of Galilee. (AZlyrics) gets this one right.
and I'll help the meek and the mild and believers and the blind (lyricfind) (lyrics.com) (lyricsplayground.com) I'll help the meek and the mild the believers and the blind (AZlyrics) I'll help the meek and the mild and the lepers and the blind (genius.com) i think this should read I'll help the meek and the mild non-believers and the blind (possibly unbelievers?) this is a context issue. "believers" don't need help, rather, those who don't believe or are blind to his teachings - would be the ones he considered needed his help. but then the second part could be about miracles - but i don't hear "lepers".
finally, this one took a while to make sense of: Let me take you to the river without a ford (lyricfind) (lyrics.com) (lyricsplayground.com) i think should be: Let me take you to the river without a fall the baptismal site of the New Testament was the River Jordan. this part of the Jordan is in the Dead sea region and doesn't have a fall (waterfall). so would make better sense - it's easier to baptise someone in practically still water. (genius.com) (AZlyrics) have this one correct.
sorry, for boring folk - the extremely lapsed catholic in me tends to retain the meaningless scripture stuff. I often wish i could replace that memory cabinet with something useful!
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 26, 2020 9:27:21 GMT
I didn't start any argument it's my opinion everyone should respect to each other's opinion so let's just do that and keep your opinion for yourself and stop talking so much about the live performance before it turns to an argument m you appear to struggle with English. i suggest you go and google the meaning of the word argument before you bandy about false accusations. FYI: argument noun
1. an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one.
example of use: "I've had an argument with my father"
2. a reason or set of reasons given in support of an idea, action or theory.
example of use: "there is a strong argument for submitting a formal appeal"i was very clearly using the word argument as per "2" above. this isn't the first time you've accused people of things they haven't done - or shown hostility toward other posters. i politely suggest that before you launch in with a response next time. go and check the actual meanings of words and phrases used. You don't have to do this all this thread isn't supposed to be a dictionary and I won't accuse and I didn't people at all. I'm clearly know what you mean
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Post by ThomasQuinn on Aug 26, 2020 9:49:06 GMT
Buddy, this is the third time in a few day that you made unjustified accusations because you misunderstood what was written, only to deny that you ever misunderstood it in the first place. It's starting to become a problem.
I also find it unfortunate that, when confronted with arguments that challenge your assumptions, you reply by saying it's your opinion and no one can make you agree - that's not productive, not smart and not mature. An opinion is worth nothing if it's not grounded in fact.
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BrƎИsꓘi
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They called it paradise, I don't know why...You call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye.
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Aug 26, 2020 9:52:43 GMT
by citing the electric guitar in White Queen, you've beat yourself with your own argument. as i pointed out earlier (which you disagreed with) - Mad The Swine isn't really acoustic, is it? there's bass playing throughout (from 00:24 onwards), and what about the phasing/panning effects (00:25-00:29, 01:37-01:48) and electric guitar from 01:52 to end of song. you can't cherry-pick how/when to include/exclude specific identical examples to support your argument, it's illogical and just doesn't work. I didn't start any argument it's my opinion everyone should respect to each other's opinion so let's just do that and keep your opinion for yourself and stop talking so much about the live performance before it turns to an argument m You don't have to do this all this thread isn't supposed to be a dictionary and I won't accuse and I didn't people at all. I'm clearly know what you mean you clearly misinterpreted my meaning of the word argument. i pointed out to you the difference. i've sent you a PM - please read it carefully.
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