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Post by queen1970s on Aug 26, 2020 9:58:19 GMT
Buddy, this is the third time in a few day that you made unjustified accusations because you misunderstood what was written, only to deny that you ever misunderstood it in the first place. It's starting to become a problem. I also find it unfortunate that, when confronted with arguments that challenge your assumptions, you reply by saying it's your opinion and no one can make you agree - that's not productive, not smart and not mature. An opinion is worth nothing if it's not grounded in fact. Look my friend I have this problem sometimes but I'm understand everything. And what I mean is everyone have their opinions, it's wrong that someone trying to put his/her opinion on other people and insist them to be agree with their opinion and also my goal of making this thread was everyone could have their opinions and also this tread wasn't made for proving that the song performed live or not it's mainly of opinions about the song and it's turning to an argument because some of you have a different opinions so I said let's everyone keep their opinions for themselves and stop talking about live performance |
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 26, 2020 10:00:13 GMT
I didn't start any argument it's my opinion everyone should respect to each other's opinion so let's just do that and keep your opinion for yourself and stop talking so much about the live performance before it turns to an argument m You don't have to do this all this thread isn't supposed to be a dictionary and I won't accuse and I didn't people at all. I'm clearly know what you mean you clearly misinterpreted my meaning of the word argument. i pointed out to you the difference. i've sent you a PM - please read it carefully. I said sometimes I see them wrong but I understand them and please let's just skip talking about my problems this is mainly a thread about "MTS" not me. |
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Post by ThomasQuinn on Aug 26, 2020 10:04:04 GMT
Buddy, this is the third time in a few day that you made unjustified accusations because you misunderstood what was written, only to deny that you ever misunderstood it in the first place. It's starting to become a problem. I also find it unfortunate that, when confronted with arguments that challenge your assumptions, you reply by saying it's your opinion and no one can make you agree - that's not productive, not smart and not mature. An opinion is worth nothing if it's not grounded in fact. Look my friend I have this problem sometimes but I'm understand everything. And what I mean is everyone have their opinions, it's wrong that someone trying to put his/her opinion on other people and insist them to be agree with their opinion and also my goal of making this thread was everyone could have their opinions and also this tread wasn't made for proving that the song performed live or not it's mainly of opinions about the song and it's turning to an argument because some of you have a different opinions so I said let's everyone keep their opinions for themselves and stop talking about live performance 1) You absolutely don't get to tell people to "keep their opinions to themselves [and stop talking about live performance]".
2) A discussion forum is meant for discussion. Stating fact-free opinions and expecting them to go unchallenged is weird beyond words. 3) You seem to think that every opinion is as good as any other. That's not so when facts are involved.
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Post by rogermeddowstaylor on Aug 26, 2020 10:21:29 GMT
This is one of the tracks which is a total paradox. Freddie was a Zoroastrianit show why would he even write a song about Jesus and the bible? Why so early on as the first Queen album where basically everything mattered? And it wasn't included which makes it even stranger.
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Post by ThomasQuinn on Aug 26, 2020 10:36:31 GMT
Why write a song about Jesus and the bible when he was a Zoroastrian? Well, I would say for the same reason that European and American bands drew on eastern religious imagery in the late '60s and '70s - it seemed exotic and different to them.
Although, arguably, "everything mattered", I think the first album is far less disciplined and carefully constructed than the second, so I don't think it's strange that there was music all over the place - also, we don't know whether MTS was written with the intent to include it on the album.
As to why it wasn't included, I think it just doesn't fit in all that well. Like Hangman, for instance.
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oreno
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Post by oreno on Aug 26, 2020 11:42:58 GMT
I don't think there's any evidence that Freddie followed the Zoroastrian faith, once he became an adopted Londoner anyway. It seems he was only religious in the "I believe there's a God" but non-practicing/never attending church way, that a lot of people with religious upbringings are.
My guess is he remained only nominally a follower of the faith, and his funeral followed that faith, in order to keep his family happy.
As for the strong Christian/religious overtones on Queen, it's an interesting dimension that has never been satisfactorily explained. I would hazard a guess - that the Bible offered a lot of handy good/evil exotic/mythological shorthand that fitted Freddie's preoccupations of the time. Just as he adapted the Pied Piper, Richard Dadd's painting, Tolkien and so on.
They were far from the only band to mine literature, religion and myth as lyrical inspiration. If anything they were late to the game- Genesis had been doing it for years, and The Who's Tommy (apparently a Freddie favourite) had explicit religious overtones.
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Post by rogermeddowstaylor on Aug 26, 2020 11:46:26 GMT
I don't think there's any evidence that Freddie followed the Zoroastrian faith, once he became an adopted Londoner anyway. It seems he was only religious in the "I believe there's a God" but non-practicing/never attending church way, that a lot of people with religious upbringings are. My guess is he remained only nominally a follower of the faith, and his funeral followed that faith, in order to keep his family happy. As for the strong Christian/religious overtones on Queen, it's an interesting dimension that has never been satisfactorily explained. I would hazard a guess - that the Bible offered a lot of handy good/evil exotic/mythological shorthand that fitted Freddie's preoccupations of the time. Just as he adapted the Pied Piper, Richard Dadd's painting, Tolkien and so on. They were far from the only band to mine literature, religion and myth as lyrical inspiration. If anything they were late to the game- Genesis had been doing it for years, and The Who's Tommy (apparently a Freddie favourite) had explicit religious overtones. He may not have always lived by it but he was born and raised a Zoro and buried in the Zoro traditional way. Overall that makes him a Zoro. So it still comes across a bit odd writing a song entirely about Jesus. |
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Post by ThomasQuinn on Aug 26, 2020 11:56:02 GMT
Only if you're looking at it from a perspective where Jesus is on another level than other mythological characters. If you regard the tales of Jesus as similar to, say, Norse or Greek mythology, it isn't so strange IMHO.
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 26, 2020 12:45:39 GMT
I'm sorry guys this thread is about "MTS", you can have another thread about "Jesus". Apologize if it sounded rude. Just said that as a reminder
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Aug 26, 2020 13:29:07 GMT
I'm sorry guys this thread is about "MTS", you can have another thread about "Jesus". Apologize if it sounded rude. Just said that as a reminder OK, so what is there left to discuss about MTS? Errrmm... As has been said, this is a discussion forum, and discussions often progress from the initial topic, particularly if that topic was quite limited to begin with. As MTS was a religion themed song, I don't think the discussion has so far been unreasonable. That being said, we do have a rule discouraging political and religious debates, so let's not allow this thread to take too much of a turn towards religion, or personal religious views. Ta. 🙂 |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2020 13:50:04 GMT
The creative process isn't necessarily restricted by the author's real-life beliefs or upbringing. Brian mentioned that a few years ago when discussing 'Bicycle Race': Frederick did like Star Wars a lot and in all the years they knew each other Brian never saw him riding a bicycle or even owning one; so he just created a character and ran with it.
Bernard Taupin wrote some beautiful lyrics about Marilyn Monroe, whom he never knew at all (the song actually opens that way) and Brian May repeated the approach when penning a song about Welsh actor Philip Sayer, whom he did not know, their lives never touched, till the day they gathered to bid him farewell.
The point is that a novelist, a composer, a librettist, a playwright or a script-writer can easily have a topic different to his or her own life: that's why Wagner wrote about the Nibelung despite being raised Lutheran; that's why Shakespeare wrote about so many different societies, not just his own; that's why Liszt composed the 'Mephisto Waltzes' without necessarily believing in German folklore; that's why Voltaire penned 'Candide' without necessarily having been a Conquistador, and centuries later Bernstein musicalised it using a variety of genres and styles he didn't necessarily grow up with.
Frederick didn't need a PhD in theology to write a couple of verses and a chorus, twice.
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BrƎИsꓘi
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Aug 26, 2020 14:11:21 GMT
The creative process isn't necessarily restricted by the author's real-life beliefs or upbringing. Brian mentioned that a few years ago when discussing 'Bicycle Race': Frederick did like Star Wars a lot and in all the years they knew each other Brian never saw him riding a bicycle or even owning one; so he just created a character and ran with it. Bernard Taupin wrote some beautiful lyrics about Marilyn Monroe, whom he never knew at all (the song actually opens that way) and Brian May repeated the approach when penning a song about Welsh actor Philip Sayer, whom he did not know, their lives never touched, till the day they gathered to bid him farewell. The point is that a novelist, a composer, a librettist, a playwright or a script-writer can easily have a topic different to his or her own life: that's why Wagner wrote about the Nibelung despite being raised Lutheran; that's why Shakespeare wrote about so many different societies, not just his own; that's why Liszt composed the 'Mephisto Waltzes' without necessarily believing in German folklore; that's why Voltaire penned 'Candide' without necessarily having been a Conquistador, and centuries later Bernstein musicalised it using a variety of genres and styles he didn't necessarily grow up with. Frederick didn't need a PhD in theology to write a couple of verses and a chorus, twice. brilliantly put ^ |
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oreno
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Post by oreno on Aug 26, 2020 16:20:34 GMT
Looks like John S Stuart was the origin of this claim back on Queenzone; that MTS was originally placed between GKR and MFK; that it overlapped with the final GKR drum part; and that "I've" was edited from the released MTS because of this overlap. And that the 1991 release was only remastered/EQ-d, not remixed from the multitrack.
He didn't share his source but from what I understand he is (was?) a very trustworthy / esteemed fan. So probably safe to assume he knew what he was talking about.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2020 16:23:35 GMT
John was a dear friend and a marvellous human being. I never met him in person but we had online contact (first via email, then FB) many, many times over the course of seventeen or so years. This particular 'Mad the Swine' point was one we didn't quite manage to agree upon. I'll leave it at that as he's tragically not around anymore to tell his side of the story.
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BrƎИsꓘi
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Aug 26, 2020 16:34:27 GMT
This is one of the tracks which is a total paradox. Freddie was a Zoroastrianit show why would he even write a song about Jesus and the bible? Why so early on as the first Queen album where basically everything mattered? And it wasn't included which makes it even stranger. because if all he ever wrote about what were what "fits" with him personally, then he'd have run out of songs after one album. Freddie didn't know/meet any ogres, fairies, troubadours, titans, peers, privy counsellors or even Leroy Brown , - but was able to write about them all. i'd never heard that he'd ever attempted suicide either - yet he was able to claim "don't try suicide - you're just gonna hate it" MTS was left off the first album because the band didn't feel it good enough. the reason was never any more complicated than that. |
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 26, 2020 16:37:50 GMT
Some sources claimed that Freddie played percussion on MTS which I'm not sure about it is this fact true?
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BrƎИsꓘi
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Aug 26, 2020 16:40:56 GMT
Some sources claimed that Freddie played percussion on MTS which I'm not sure about it is this fact true? have you got any (non-Wiki) link to any of those sources? |
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 26, 2020 16:47:13 GMT
Some sources claimed that Freddie played percussion on MTS which I'm not sure about it is this fact true? have you got any (non-Wiki) link to any of those sources? No I can't remember where I've read that |
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Post by queen1970s on Aug 26, 2020 16:47:48 GMT
I guess it was Queenpedia
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BrƎИsꓘi
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Aug 26, 2020 17:14:41 GMT
I guess it was Queenpedia i'd already looked there and it wasn't. here's a list of places i've checked and there's no reference to Freddie playing percussion: Wikipedia Queenpedia Queensongs Queenzone there were however, disagreements between Roy Thomas Baker and Queen (over the drum/percussion) -which resulted in the song being ditched from the album. Further reading here: pasted from John S Stuart's original post on Qzone: |
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jo
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Post by jo on Aug 26, 2020 19:56:32 GMT
Is it possible Freddie had a percussion credit for some of the hand percussion that was used in the recording. There is definitely a tambourine being played and maybe a cowbell and some sort of shaker.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2020 20:21:35 GMT
Is it possible Freddie had a percussion credit for some of the hand percussion that was used in the recording. There is definitely a tambourine being played and maybe a cowbell and some sort of shaker. Based on the available evidence (i.e. absolutely none), it could just as easily have been John Deacon, Brian May, Roger Taylor (the band's official percussionist, after all), John Anthony, Roy Baker, Michael Stone, Edward Sharp, David Hentschel, Robin Cable, Barry Sheffield, Norman Sheffield, Mary Austin, Veronica Tetzlaff... |
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Post by The Real Wizard on Aug 28, 2020 15:32:46 GMT
What I would give to have that list of titles... I think it was a list of the unreleased and unused songs like: "Hangman", "Polar Bear", "Sandbox", "Silver Salmon" and "Mad The Swine" This is needless and pointless speculation.
A very incomplete list of unreleased songs we are aware of has absolutely no bearing on what was listened to in 1991. The Queen archive and Brian's personal collection have far more than anyone will ever know about - including their archivist.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Aug 28, 2020 18:21:23 GMT
Once again, you're not researching - you're 'conclusion shopping', ignoring any source which may contradict your preconceived idea(s) of how you think or would've liked things to have been, rather than objectively gauging what's there and reaching a better conclusion based on evidence. Where is the "love" button ? Surely one can be implemented for posts like this.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Aug 28, 2020 18:23:53 GMT
While Queen wasn't completely an acoustic track it has a lot of electric guitar at the end. And how do you know that how they performed TNCD and MTS? There is a setlist with Freddie’s handwriting and the fourth track in is The Night Comes Down. (Third picture with the caption “Queen in London” underneath it) www.queenconcerts.com/memorabilia/stage-setlists.htmlTo be fair - the fact that a song was written on a setlist doesn't mean it was played. Bands often call out the tunes as they go (Springsteen, anyone?), and something they rarely played could've been skipped for any number of reasons.
That said, now that there are two separate sources saying it was played, this almost certainly means it was played at some point - just not necessarily those exact nights. I remain a skeptic until I hear a recording or a trustworthy recollection/review from someone who was there.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Aug 28, 2020 18:38:04 GMT
Buddy, this is the third time in a few day that you made unjustified accusations because you misunderstood what was written, only to deny that you ever misunderstood it in the first place. It's starting to become a problem. I also find it unfortunate that, when confronted with arguments that challenge your assumptions, you reply by saying it's your opinion and no one can make you agree - that's not productive, not smart and not mature. An opinion is worth nothing if it's not grounded in fact. Look my friend I have this problem sometimes but I'm understand everything. And what I mean is everyone have their opinions, it's wrong that someone trying to put his/her opinion on other people and insist them to be agree with their opinion and also my goal of making this thread was everyone could have their opinions and also this tread wasn't made for proving that the song performed live or not it's mainly of opinions about the song and it's turning to an argument because some of you have a different opinions so I said let's everyone keep their opinions for themselves and stop talking about live performance The person you're currently butting heads with is a published historian with a Ph.D. The fact that you believe this sort of investigation is merely a matter of "opinion" highlights how ill-equipped you are for a discussion of this depth. Please show some humility and try to entertain the distinct possibility that you're far out of your league at the moment.
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Makka
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Post by Makka on Aug 29, 2020 5:27:31 GMT
I don't mind the song but I am very anti-religious so the lyric content turns me off, same as the track Jesus which I wished they'd left of Queen 1. But I find the sound quality of the track to be slightly better than the Queen 1 recording and the developing of the early harmonies are great.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2020 10:33:38 GMT
I'm anti-religious too but I love Bach's Cantata No 106. In fact, I sang it once. The music's so beautiful that the words could be utter bollocks (they are) but it still qualifies as enjoyable.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2020 17:05:58 GMT
To be fair - the fact that a song was written on a setlist doesn't mean it was played. Bands often call out the tunes as they go (Springsteen, anyone?), and something they rarely played could've been skipped for any number of reasons.
That said, now that there are two separate sources saying it was played, this almost certainly means it was played at some point - just not necessarily those exact nights. I remain a skeptic until I hear a recording or a trustworthy recollection/review from someone who was there.
This was just reinforcing the fact people have said that it was played live on separate accounts. Granted I understand your sentiment, I just posted setlist as further cushion to positively state it was played. |
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Post by The Real Wizard on Sept 1, 2020 1:34:55 GMT
I'm anti-religious too but I love Bach's Cantata No 106. In fact, I sang it once. The music's so beautiful that the words could be utter bollocks (they are) but it still qualifies as enjoyable. Absolutely.
Some of the most beautiful music ever composed is sacred choral music. They could be singing "watermelon watermelon" for all I care - the words are perfect for the compositions as they are. It's the same reason why early Yes is perfect, and I wouldn't change a thing.
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