Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Apr 13, 2020 10:46:31 GMT
How on earth did this start as a request for info on the best CD version of LK and very quickly degenerate into an entirely different discussion? Out of 28 replies, only TWO people have offered an answer to the question. And this place is meant to be an alternative to the crap on Queenzone? !!!!! Here's my answer to the posters question: I don't know. I've had the original UK CD release. I've had the HR remaster and I have the Japanese card sleeve remaster from 2004 (TOCP 67461ยท62) To my ears, the Japanese remaster is the best sounding version. www.discogs.com/Queen-Live-Killers/release/3886147Hope this helps. There's no need to be so rude. Please refrain from resorting to rudeness. Just to add, in my experience of lots of forums, the friendliest ones are the ones where you can have conversations without rigidly sticking to the main topic. If you were talking with friends normally, the conversation would veer off into tangents, and other interesting comments are often made, such as in this thread. Be kind to one another, don't be derogatory to others, respect other people's views and we should all get along. ๐๐
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emrabt
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Post by emrabt on Apr 13, 2020 11:01:56 GMT
Threads tend to evolve, the forum is pretty relaxed and everyone is finding the evolution of this one interesting. Why would you find something that is very informative, and fairly on topic - (live killers) to be a bad thing.
You have caused much more disruption by coming on to say you don't know.
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Jakelic
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Post by Jakelic on Apr 13, 2020 11:04:22 GMT
It didnโt degenerate, it evolved naturally into an interesting subject, thatโs the beauty of a good forum. If thread topic evolves into something interesting and sourceful, surely moderators can move it to a standalone topic so no need to get upset. It was a great read.
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Post by deathtoming on Apr 13, 2020 14:29:46 GMT
Pootle, thanks for answering my question. You're right, I forgot to include the original 80s CD. But based on the samples provided by mrbadguy46, I've decided to go for the 2001 remastering. The vinyl replica cardboard sleeves are ideal but too expensive, so I'm deciding between European reissues, or the 2019 SHM-CD from Japan. The Real Wizard, this one with Roger's arms down has slightly lower resolution, but doesn't have the book's text:
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emrabt
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Post by emrabt on Apr 13, 2020 14:46:41 GMT
Once you know you can tell, but how amazing is that composite, That would have been done with matting, resizing, cutting and all sorts in a photo lab (Or an actual photoshop), and it blows live at the bowls digital shop work right out of the water. Does anyone know if Koh Hasebe would have done this himself?
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Post by deathtoming on Apr 13, 2020 17:06:40 GMT
Does anyone know if Koh Hasebe would have done this himself? During an event last year, Hasebe was asked about Brian being pasted in, and he seemed doubtful about that, saying that he thought he was somehow able to get a shot with the four of them. That said, he was almost 89 years old and recalling a job from 40 years earlier.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Apr 13, 2020 21:47:27 GMT
There's no need to be so rude. Please refrain from resorting to rudeness. Just to add, in my experience of lots of forums, the friendliest ones are the ones where you can have conversations without rigidly sticking to the main topic. If you were talking with friends normally, the conversation would veer off into tangents, and other interesting comments are often made, such as in this thread. Be kind to one another, don't be derogatory to others, respect other people's views and we should all get along. ๐๐ Bingo.
Furthermore - the first thing mentioned in the original post is the cover shoot. That's just where the discussion evolved, because solving a 40 year old mystery tends to be more interesting than comparing remasters.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Apr 13, 2020 21:55:34 GMT
The Real Wizard, this one with Roger's arms down has slightly lower resolution, but doesn't have the book's text: Spectacular ! Thanks for everything you've offered so far.
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Post by badboybez on Apr 13, 2020 22:07:39 GMT
Well I learnt something today! Cheers.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Apr 13, 2020 22:26:34 GMT
There's no need to be so rude. Please refrain from resorting to rudeness. Just to add, in my experience of lots of forums, the friendliest ones are the ones where you can have conversations without rigidly sticking to the main topic. If you were talking with friends normally, the conversation would veer off into tangents, and other interesting comments are often made, such as in this thread. Be kind to one another, don't be derogatory to others, respect other people's views and we should all get along. ๐๐ Well said mate.
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macduff77
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Post by macduff77 on Apr 13, 2020 22:45:29 GMT
Itโs not a CD release, but Iโve been listening to the recent Deagostini Japanese vinyl release of Live Killers. It does sound remastered, with a little more bassy, rich and full-sounded than the original. Is it perfect? No - I donโt think the sound can ever be. But, listening on headphones it does sound better.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Apr 13, 2020 22:49:06 GMT
A good pair of cans can make all the difference.
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Post by Wilki Amieva on Apr 14, 2020 1:22:06 GMT
Nice thread! Even if the remasters are not discussed much. Now to the remasters: There are just 4 different (re)masters of the whole double album. - 1986 uncredited digital master - Used for the original EMI CD releases.
EMI Records used their own production masters for this release, so it does not come from the best possible source. This particular album has a low pass filter that cuts everything above 20.2 kHz (please see Figure 2 below) - probably some early form of noise reduction. AVOID!
- 1991 digital remaster made by Eddy Schreyer at Future Disc Systems, Hollywood - Used for the '20 Queen Years' 1991 release by Hollywood Records and the 'Digital Master Series' 1994 releases by Parlophone/EMI Records and Toshiba-EMI.
Mr. Schreyer uses a very conservative approach for the remastering, which is based on a mainly analog processing chain from a safety copy of the original master. There is more clarity than the original CD, but also more hiss - no noise reduction seems to be present. Dynamics are very well preserved in this remaster, and the speed/pitch is a little bit lower than the original CD.
- 1998 digital remaster made by Peter Mew at Abbey Road Studios, London - Unreleased, except for some songs in the Queen Singles Collection 2.
A digital transfer was made from the best possible source at 96 kHz/24-bits, and the tape runs a tad faster/higher than the original CD. Mr. Mew used a hybrid processing chain, attaining good stereo separation and a low noise floor. A limiter was used to boost the sound about 4 dB (see Figure 1 below). The final 44/16 master was generated through the Super Noise Shaping (SNS) system by Prism Audio.
- 2001 digital remaster made by Peter Mew at Abbey Road Studios, London - Used for the 'Queen: 2001-Forever' plus several other Toshiba-EMI re-issues, and also the 2003 Parlophone releases.
Same transfer as above, and same overall sound. Some phase correction applied.
Figure 1. Waveform analysis for Now I'm Here (live). From top to bottom: 1986, 1991, 1998 and 2001 CDs. Figure 2. Frequency analysis for Now I'm Here (live). Color references: 1986, 1991 and 1998/ 2001 CDs.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Apr 14, 2020 1:33:11 GMT
So then what's the general consensus of the best sounding version?
The 2001 Japanese CD sounds great to my ears, compared to the Hollywood Records version I grew up with.
Anybody A/B'd it with the Deagostini vinyl?
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Post by deathtoming on Apr 14, 2020 1:36:19 GMT
Itโs not a CD release, but Iโve been listening to the recent Deagostini Japanese vinyl release of Live Killers. It does sound remastered, with a little more bassy, rich and full-sounded than the original. Is it perfect? No - I donโt think the sound can ever be. But, listening on headphones it does sound better. I'm fairly certain the Deagostini Japanese/Italian vinyl uses the 2001 Mew remastering that was used on the 2019 Japanese SHM-CD, so that's another favourable opinion I'm hearing. It's old news, but did we ever get an explanation or a solid theory as to why it wasn't included in the 2011 Ludwig CDs? I know sound quality was always an issue, but it was reissued several times in the 2000s so it's not like they were totally trying to bury it.
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Post by deathtoming on Apr 14, 2020 1:42:04 GMT
The Real Wizard, this one with Roger's arms down has slightly lower resolution, but doesn't have the book's text: Spectacular ! Thanks for everything you've offered so far. My pleasure. Thanks for engaging in this thread with me, and also, thanks for queenlive.ca!
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Post by deathtoming on Apr 14, 2020 1:46:34 GMT
Nice thread! Even if the remasters are not discussed much. Now to the remasters: There are just 4 different (re)masters of the whole double album. Figure 1. Waveform analysis for Now I'm Here (live). From top to bottom: 1986, 1991, 1998 and 2001 CDs. Figure 2. Frequency analysis for Now I'm Here (live). Color references 1986, 1991 and 1998/ 2001 CDs. Oh wow, I wasn't expecting this kind of response to my original question! I'm familiar with Figure 1, but not with Figure 2. Can you explain the significance of this for me? In particular, what does that noticeable drop at the very end for the 1986 CD signify?
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Post by Wilki Amieva on Apr 14, 2020 2:17:00 GMT
It's old news, but did we ever get an explanation or a solid theory as to why it wasn't included in the 2011 Ludwig CDs? I know sound quality was always an issue, but it was reissued several times in the 2000s so it's not like they were totally trying to bury it. Bob Ludwig was comissioned to remaster the studio albums only. As Universal Music was taking over Queen's back catalog, they obviously decided to reissue all the studio work in a short time span - so a new remaster series was needed. Regarding the live releases, the idea was to offer a mixture of revisited stuff (Wembley, Budapest) and new albums (such as Live At The Rainbow and A Night At The Odeon), spaced over time.
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Post by Wilki Amieva on Apr 14, 2020 2:23:30 GMT
Oh wow, I wasn't expecting this kind of response to my original question! I'm familiar with Figure 1, but not with Figure 2. Can you explain the significance of this for me? In particular, what does that noticeable drop at the very end for the 1986 CD signify? The second figure depicts sound level (dB) in the y-axis versus frequency (Hz) in the x-axis. The drop you've noticed means that the 1986 CD lacks any audio response above 20.2 kHz.
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cmi
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Post by cmi on Apr 14, 2020 6:07:28 GMT
Wilki, thanks for this detailed analysis and some interesting notes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2020 0:27:25 GMT
First time I've seen it - brilliant ! So that's three outtake shots now. Any chance you could post it in higher resolution? Sorry, that image is from the amazon.co.jp preview of the book from the publisher, so that's the best I can do. I can't find much more information online in Japanese, except that the guys also told Koh Hasebe that they'd wrap their arms around each other's shoulders, but never did, which annoyed Hasebe. But I wonder how that would have looked for the cover? This isn't the last time they'd play around with the cover of a live album, though: Nothing on that cover is from Milton Keynes; even that pasted-in image of John in the blue outfit when you see where it came from. credit for the image: www.t-s-w-and-b.com/qtrivia/jaket3.htmlNow that's the ultimate "You learn something new every day" thread. Many thanks for all this info.
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bodwin1
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Post by bodwin1 on Apr 15, 2020 16:21:13 GMT
Wilki Amieva: There is also a remaster by Kevin Metcalfe in 1993 (released in 1994) done for the Digital Master Series.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Apr 15, 2020 16:58:37 GMT
Sorry, that image is from the amazon.co.jp preview of the book from the publisher, so that's the best I can do. I can't find much more information online in Japanese, except that the guys also told Koh Hasebe that they'd wrap their arms around each other's shoulders, but never did, which annoyed Hasebe. But I wonder how that would have looked for the cover? This isn't the last time they'd play around with the cover of a live album, though: Nothing on that cover is from Milton Keynes; even that pasted-in image of John in the blue outfit when you see where it came from. credit for the image:ย www.t-s-w-and-b.com/qtrivia/jaket3.htmlNow that's the ultimate "You learn something new every day" thread. Many thanks for all this info. Couldn't agree more!
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Post by The Real Wizard on Apr 16, 2020 7:46:42 GMT
deathtoming - revisiting this again. What proof do we have that this photo of Brian is actually from April 25, 1979 ?
The band photo is certainly from the 24th, with Mercury in the silver lurex suit. But couldn't the photo of Brian just be from a few seconds later on the 24th as well, or maybe one of the other Tokyo shows (there were five in all) ?
I know I'm calling everything I wrote on the previous page into question now, but I'm trying to remember how we became so certain of this.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Apr 16, 2020 8:29:34 GMT
Love the lights. Looks amazing.
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Post by mrbadguy46 on Apr 16, 2020 11:22:07 GMT
First time I've seen it - brilliant ! So that's three outtake shots now. Any chance you could post it in higher resolution? Sorry, that image is from the amazon.co.jp preview of the book from the publisher, so that's the best I can do. I can't find much more information online in Japanese, except that the guys also told Koh Hasebe that they'd wrap their arms around each other's shoulders, but never did, which annoyed Hasebe. But I wonder how that would have looked for the cover? This isn't the last time they'd play around with the cover of a live album, though: Nothing on that cover is from Milton Keynes; even that pasted-in image of John in the blue outfit when you see where it came from. credit for the image: www.t-s-w-and-b.com/qtrivia/jaket3.htmlHere's a 600 dpi scan of the DVD release: mega.nz/file/kR9AlY6T#hy9vGDHBsAaBskj2X4mf-6tmV28CAc7iygJ_S1ReiTI
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Apr 16, 2020 15:02:22 GMT
600dpi really brings out the gloss. Looks brill.
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moonie
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Post by moonie on Apr 16, 2020 15:22:15 GMT
Really interesting read this thread. Cheers to everybody who's contributed. Good stuff.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on Apr 16, 2020 17:24:04 GMT
Really interesting read this thread. Cheers to everybody who's contributed. Good stuff. It's threads like this that makes this place a joy to work for!
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Post by deathtoming on Apr 16, 2020 18:15:54 GMT
deathtoming - revisiting this again. What proof do we have that this photo of Brian is actually from April 25, 1979 ? The band photo is certainly from the 24th, with Mercury in the silver lurex suit. But couldn't the photo of Brian just be from a few seconds later on the 24th as well, or maybe one of the other Tokyo shows (there were five in all) ?
I know I'm calling everything I wrote on the previous page into question now, but I'm trying to remember how we became so certain of this. Actually, I don't think we ever had any proof about Brian's solo pic. As for the group photo, I don't think we have any evidence to point at the 24th, either. We can only rule out some dates: 1) April 13, Budokan - because it's the first night 2) April 14, Budokan - because it's the second night 3) April 25, Budokan - because of the video proof (wrong outfit, as you pointed out) 4) May 5 and 6, Sapporo - these are the last two shows; it's highly unlikely that they would wait this long to try to get the shot they wanted, and the "running out of time" pressure would have added another element to the story and would have been told. Also, it wouldn't make sense to have a Tokyo-based magazine photographer to travel all the way to the northern island of Hokkaido when they had 5 shows in Tokyo alone. Personally, I'm leaning towards the 3rd or 4th nights of the tour, both in Osaka. The photo of the group at the train station with Freddie taking Polaroids is by Hasebe at Osaka station, so he did travel with them. I have my doubts about the the second leg at the Budokan, because by then it's already their 6th, 7th, and 8th shows, 10 days after their first night. How much time do they need to decide on the cover photo, with Live Killers being released June 22? Also, Koh Hasebe has been consistent with the "I got it on the 3rd try" story across several interviews; however, all of these interviews were in the past couple of years to promote his photo exhibition, and he's turning 90 later this month, thinking back 40 years ago. What if he actually got it on the 4th try? It would help if we had access to more photos; particularly those with John in the hat and Freddie in silver. But I've given up on getting accurately dated pro shots, or good quality amateur shots. For example, this pro shot: It was on a book publisher's website to promote their book of live photos of Queen from '75 to '85. However, it just said, "Japan tour 1979, date and venue unknown." They got the rights to publish from the photographer (Hasebe?) but have no details? Then what luck are we going to have? For amateur photos, the only one I found was this one from their Nagoya show (April 28): My last hope is to track down a copy of Music Life from 1979, because that's who Koh Hasebe worked for. Supposedly the summer edition of that magazine has extensive details about the '79 tour; on the other hand, a lot of those details are in the Queen in Japan book I've reference several times, and it's mostly things like what they ate for dinner on any particular night. But maybe the magazine will have more tour photos. I'll pick one up if it's a decent price.
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