Lord Fickle
Global Moderator
Posts: 20,294
Likes: 7,097
|
Post by Lord Fickle on May 17, 2021 18:44:01 GMT
For me, the trouble with the last three albums was that they all had tremendous lead singles (One Vision, I Want It All, Innuendo), which each time I thought was going to be a return to form with some heavier stuff, but then the albums came along and never really lived up to the expectations of the singles. Just proves the point that Queen indeed are, to the average person, a singles band. I was discussing this with a friend the other day, Queen have at least 20 tracks that are truly iconic and are known around the world by most people. However, as much as us diehard fans love to consider them an albums band, most ordinary music fans would struggle to name an album title, apart from perhaps 'A Night at the Opera'. It is indeed a real shame, as I think the quality of their albums as works of art are much more impressive than the hits as standalone singles. Just sticking to the last three albums, the trouble was, with Was It All Worth It being the exception (in my opinion), the tracks released as singles were the strongest tracks on the albums and those that weren't singles were largely fillers. Other than WIAWI, was there a really strong track on the last three albums that wasn't a single? When you think back to the earlier albums, they only released two or three singles from them, which also left some strong album tracks, but there were four or five singles each from those last three albums, and what was left was mostly disposable, so in that sense, I think they did turn into more of a singles band.
|
|
|
Post by The Real Wizard on May 17, 2021 20:43:56 GMT
A chart position does not make a song iconic. Especially since songs and albums can go gold or platinum on advance sales alone, based on the sales of previous material by that artist.
|
|
georg
Global Moderator
wrote several books
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 1,346
|
Post by georg on May 17, 2021 22:03:01 GMT
Just proves the point that Queen indeed are, to the average person, a singles band. I was discussing this with a friend the other day, Queen have at least 20 tracks that are truly iconic and are known around the world by most people. However, as much as us diehard fans love to consider them an albums band, most ordinary music fans would struggle to name an album title, apart from perhaps 'A Night at the Opera'. It is indeed a real shame, as I think the quality of their albums as works of art are much more impressive than the hits as standalone singles. Just sticking to the last three albums, the trouble was, with Was It All Worth It being the exception (in my opinion), the tracks released as singles were the strongest tracks on the albums and those that weren't singles were largely fillers. Other than WIAWI, was there a really strong track on the last three albums that wasn't a single? When you think back to the earlier albums, they only released two or three singles from them, which also left some strong album tracks, but there were four or five singles each from those last three albums, and what was left was mostly disposable, so in that sense, I think they did turn into more of a singles band. I agree with this mostly re: the singles being superior but (I’m on mobile so I can’t quote properly) I think that Don’t Try So Hard, Wild Wind, and Bijou are underrated, while I Can’t Live With You has the makings of a good song. (The Hitman is a good rocker but the lyrics and production are awful, so there’s only so much you can do there.) But anyway for me Innuendo was more of an album album than a collection of five singles and four or five cast-offs. I would even go so far as to say The Works through The Miracle suffer from that but for me Innuendo was really a step up in quality. Then again I say this as someone who didn’t get to appreciate the releases as they were released… so my perception may be skewed that way…
|
|
Lord Fickle
Global Moderator
Posts: 20,294
Likes: 7,097
|
Post by Lord Fickle on May 17, 2021 22:55:47 GMT
Just sticking to the last three albums, the trouble was, with Was It All Worth It being the exception (in my opinion), the tracks released as singles were the strongest tracks on the albums and those that weren't singles were largely fillers. Other than WIAWI, was there a really strong track on the last three albums that wasn't a single? When you think back to the earlier albums, they only released two or three singles from them, which also left some strong album tracks, but there were four or five singles each from those last three albums, and what was left was mostly disposable, so in that sense, I think they did turn into more of a singles band. I agree with this mostly re: the singles being superior but (I’m on mobile so I can’t quote properly) I think that Don’t Try So Hard, Wild Wind, and Bijou are underrated, while I Can’t Live With You has the makings of a good song. (The Hitman is a good rocker but the lyrics and production are awful, so there’s only so much you can do there.) But anyway for me Innuendo was more of an album album than a collection of five singles and four or five cast-offs. I would even go so far as to say The Works through The Miracle suffer from that but for me Innuendo was really a step up in quality. Then again I say this as someone who didn’t get to appreciate the releases as they were released… so my perception may be skewed that way… I wonder if that's the key? Those of us who are old enough to have followed the band from the beginning may have a different outlook. As I kind of hinted at, I had always hoped Queen would go back to an album of the type they did in the 70s, and by that I mean with proper loud guitars, proper drums and a NOTW type production. One Vision, IWIA and Innuendo all showed promise of that, but for the most part, the parent albums didn't live up to that hopeful expectation. Innuendo was definitely the best of the last three albums, but for me the biggest problem was the sound and inconsistent production. ICLWY and The Hitman sounded totally stifled, as was proved by the vastly superior Rocks Retake of the former, and plenty has been said before about the use of programmed drums on many of the tracks. Give Innuendo the sound of NOTW and it would have been a bloody good album (mostly).
|
|
|
Post by akirafish on May 18, 2021 1:56:38 GMT
I think it was impossile for 80s Queen to produce the sounds of 70s Queen, since every musician was working with drum machines and synthesizer. To my humble knowledge the sounds of 80s generally don't age well. Also I have a feeling that Queen was not very good at synthesizer and stuff, but as a group they didn't largely trust these work to other musicians or engineers who may be more capable in the technical side. Queen was not as good at synthesizer as their own instruments.
|
|
|
Post by martinpacker on May 18, 2021 11:35:11 GMT
Funny, I thought "NOTW type production" was a step down from Q2, SHA, ANATO and ADATR. And that Jazz was a further step down. (Q I understand, given the context in which it was created.)
|
|
Lord Fickle
Global Moderator
Posts: 20,294
Likes: 7,097
|
Post by Lord Fickle on May 18, 2021 11:51:19 GMT
Funny, I thought "NOTW type production" was a step down from Q2, SHA, ANATO and ADATR. And that Jazz was a further step down. (Q I understand, given the context in which it was created.) Moving to a different topic now, but I felt NOTW and ADATR were the best sounding Queen albums, but NOTW sounded just that bit more organic. I love the comparative sparseness of The Game too.
|
|
Frank
Politician
Posts: 754
Likes: 681
|
Post by Frank on May 22, 2021 16:31:57 GMT
For me, the trouble with the last three albums was that they all had tremendous lead singles (One Vision, I Want It All, Innuendo), which each time I thought was going to be a return to form with some heavier stuff, but then the albums came along and never really lived up to the expectations of the singles. That's an interesting perspective for someone who grew up after Queen's reign. I imagine this would be very frustrating.
|
|
Lord Fickle
Global Moderator
Posts: 20,294
Likes: 7,097
|
Post by Lord Fickle on May 22, 2021 16:54:18 GMT
For me, the trouble with the last three albums was that they all had tremendous lead singles (One Vision, I Want It All, Innuendo), which each time I thought was going to be a return to form with some heavier stuff, but then the albums came along and never really lived up to the expectations of the singles. That's an interesting perspective for someone who grew up after Queen's reign. I imagine this would be very frustrating. It was! 😄
|
|
|
Post by jstaubqueenfan on May 24, 2021 12:58:56 GMT
I've always wondered if Body Language, Spread Your Wings, TYMD or Scandal would've been considered "classics" if they were on the Greatest Hits albums. TYMD is probably the only track that has been part of pretty much every Queen gig since 1977, still appearing in the setlist and not having been on a Greatest Hits collection? I always wonder how many "generic" fans at concerts actually know it? If I’m not mistaken, Tie Your Mother Down was included on the Classic Queen compilation that sold huge in the wake of Wayne’s World.
|
|
|
Post by 85guild on May 24, 2021 19:58:07 GMT
FWIW, I think that WWTLF was a lot more honest than Friends will be friends, which sounded like an attempt to make an anthem with a bunch of trite lyrics. On the other hand, WWTLF is part of what made Queen, Queen. Brian in particular was very much a student of classical and orchestral music so he was at home with the orchestration and the lyrics are super relatable. For me, the stuff that Queen did when it was in their wheelhouse with what they grew up on in their respective homes was when they were the best. Dixieland jazz, British music hall, skiffle, whatever it was you knew they were familiar with the styles. A song like Dancer seemed like Brian's effort to be relevant writing in the 80s but didn't seem like that was his scene and lacked honesty for me, pretty much didn't buy the story of him in a club being into that scene. With what he had going on in the 80s I can totally believe his sadness at the time he wrote this and I think lots of people related.
|
|
Frank
Politician
Posts: 754
Likes: 681
|
Post by Frank on May 25, 2021 11:31:03 GMT
I've always wondered if Body Language, Spread Your Wings, TYMD or Scandal would've been considered "classics" if they were on the Greatest Hits albums. TYMD is probably the only track that has been part of pretty much every Queen gig since 1977, still appearing in the setlist and not having been on a Greatest Hits collection? I always wonder how many "generic" fans at concerts actually know it? If I’m not mistaken, Tie Your Mother Down was included on the Classic Queen compilation that sold huge in the wake of Wayne’s World. This is correct. It was actually my introduction to the song.
|
|
georg
Global Moderator
wrote several books
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 1,346
|
Post by georg on May 25, 2021 18:05:09 GMT
Classic Queen was my second cassette, after News of the World. I have such a fondness for that compilation – and the accompanying VHS.
Edit: in fact I do not like the full album version of The Miracle because I first heard the edit on CQ. The jam bit never worked for me; it always felt tacked on.
|
|
BrƎИsꓘi
Administrator
They called it paradise, I don't know why...You call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye.
Posts: 3,698
Likes: 2,794
|
Post by BrƎИsꓘi on May 25, 2021 18:13:36 GMT
I think it was impossile for 80s Queen to produce the sounds of 70s Queen, since every musician was working with drum machines and synthesizer. To my humble knowledge the sounds of 80s generally don't age well. Also I have a feeling that Queen was not very good at synthesizer and stuff, but as a group they didn't largely trust these work to other musicians or engineers who may be more capable in the technical side. Queen was not as good at synthesizer as their own instruments. while i agree with most of your comment, i'd have to take issue with synthesisers being part of the problem. they were not. many bands used synthesisers during the 70s (not Queen), and synths became a part of many bands' classic sounds. you only have to stop and think about some of those great 70s rock bands and how great their music is because of the way synths are deployed. i think that because Queen had avoided synths for so long, when they finally broke their own unwritten rule two things happened: ♦ they became like kids in a sweetshop - and lost control. they wanted to try everything and anything. ♦ synths became a cop-out for actually doing the hard yards. compositions, and playing were replaced by a handful of programming operations. music creation became easier for them, it allowed them more time to be out of the studio enjoying their riches. so naturally, less effort for more gain became an all too attractive formula. for both reasons, their 80s output suffered. the 70s output (to me) sounds far superior, because you can hear the labour and effort that went into it, while the 80s stuff (by and large) is nothing more than a collection of "1s" and "0s".
|
|
vh
Ploughman
Posts: 267
Likes: 254
|
Post by vh on May 25, 2021 18:51:18 GMT
Funny, I thought "NOTW type production" was a step down from Q2, SHA, ANATO and ADATR. And that Jazz was a further step down. (Q I understand, given the context in which it was created.) Moving to a different topic now, but I felt NOTW and ADATR were the best sounding Queen albums, but NOTW sounded just that bit more organic. I love the comparative sparseness of The Game too. Absolutely agree. As you say NOTW has a very organic sound. In places it's almost like being in the room with the band. The Game uses space both in production/playing and song writing. I still think Dragon Attack is an amazing sounding song. ADATR to me is a far better sounding album than ANATO.... Runs for cover!
|
|
Lord Fickle
Global Moderator
Posts: 20,294
Likes: 7,097
|
Post by Lord Fickle on May 25, 2021 19:05:58 GMT
ADATR to me is a far better sounding album than ANATO.... Runs for cover! I'd have always agreed, until the DVD-A of ANATO came along, which opened up and improved the sound immensely. The depth it brought to The Prophet's Song, which always sounded a little flat to me on CD, was amazing, and the surround sound just gave all those multi-layered elements, particularly on Good Company, room to breathe, allowing the listener a totally immersive listening experience. But CD to CD, I'd agree that ADATR just nudges ahead. I've always loved that 'roomy' sound on the guitar solo in STL, and White Man is just blistering. They definitely sounded more like a live band on that record, which then progressed to the even more organic NOTW.
|
|
vh
Ploughman
Posts: 267
Likes: 254
|
Post by vh on May 25, 2021 19:59:09 GMT
Totally agree about the DVD-A release. But that wasn't exactly how the album originally sounded, as you pointed out.
Back on topic I'm a fan of WWTLF as its as close as any of the 80's output sounds like classic Queen, the way the song builds, baking vocal etc. Having said that I can't see it sitting comfortably on any of the 70's albums.
Through the years I guess it's come to mean more than Brian May intended and with the current lineups rendition I imagine it's future as classic is assured.
|
|
|
Post by akirafish on May 25, 2021 22:52:17 GMT
♦ they became like kids in a sweetshop - and lost control. they wanted to try everything and anything. ♦ synths became a cop-out for actually doing the hard yards. compositions, and playing were replaced by a handful of programming operations. music creation became easier for them, it allowed them more time to be out of the studio enjoying their riches. so naturally, less effort for more gain became an all too attractive formula. Totally agreed. I’m not saying synths being the problem, but the way Queen used it. I daresay the development of synths from 70s to 80s also gave Mercury the illusion that he could do well without the band or even some decent musicians (with due respect to the German session musicians), hence the shoddiness of MBG. Only after then did he realize that he did need good hands to get things done properly.
|
|
Lord Fickle
Global Moderator
Posts: 20,294
Likes: 7,097
|
Post by Lord Fickle on May 25, 2021 23:30:58 GMT
♦ they became like kids in a sweetshop - and lost control. they wanted to try everything and anything. ♦ synths became a cop-out for actually doing the hard yards. compositions, and playing were replaced by a handful of programming operations. music creation became easier for them, it allowed them more time to be out of the studio enjoying their riches. so naturally, less effort for more gain became an all too attractive formula. Totally agreed. I’m not saying synths being the problem, but the way Queen used it. I daresay the development of synths from 70s to 80s also gave Mercury the illusion that he could do well without the band or even some decent musicians (with due respect to the German session musicians), hence the shoddiness of MBG. Only after then did he realize that he did need good hands to get things done properly. Pretty sure it wasn't the case that Mercury ditched the band because of the availability of synths. Synth based disco was very big in the 80s and that's the kind of album he wanted to make, so it seems obvious that he would use the technologies available at the time to do so.
|
|
Rick
Satyr
Posts: 69
Likes: 36
|
Post by Rick on May 26, 2021 8:55:15 GMT
The version with the extended outro...damn, so good.
|
|
Lord Fickle
Global Moderator
Posts: 20,294
Likes: 7,097
|
Post by Lord Fickle on May 26, 2021 9:42:09 GMT
The version with the extended outro...damn, so good. You mean the album version? Wasn't aware of a longer one, but there is an 'extended' version on YouTube which just repeats the last chorus before the outro. Not sure if that one is official or just a fan mix, but suspect the latter.
|
|
|
Post by The Fairy King on May 26, 2021 9:42:14 GMT
Totally agreed. I’m not saying synths being the problem, but the way Queen used it. I daresay the development of synths from 70s to 80s also gave Mercury the illusion that he could do well without the band or even some decent musicians (with due respect to the German session musicians), hence the shoddiness of MBG. Only after then did he realize that he did need good hands to get things done properly. Pretty sure it wasn't the case that Mercury ditched the band because of the availability of synths. Synth based disco was very big in the 80s and that's the kind of album he wanted to make, so it seems obvious that he would use the technologies available at the time to do so. If only he could hire Nile Rodgers for MBG, things would've been very different.
|
|
Lord Fickle
Global Moderator
Posts: 20,294
Likes: 7,097
|
Post by Lord Fickle on May 26, 2021 9:44:42 GMT
Pretty sure it wasn't the case that Mercury ditched the band because of the availability of synths. Synth based disco was very big in the 80s and that's the kind of album he wanted to make, so it seems obvious that he would use the technologies available at the time to do so. If only he could hire Nile Rodgers for MBG, things would've been very different. Not really. It would still have been crappy 80s disco. 😉
|
|
BrƎИsꓘi
Administrator
They called it paradise, I don't know why...You call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye.
Posts: 3,698
Likes: 2,794
|
Post by BrƎИsꓘi on May 26, 2021 10:06:45 GMT
If only he could hire Nile Rodgers for MBG, things would've been very different. Not really. It would still have been crappy 80s disco. 😉 agreed. Nile Rodgers the disco maestro himself struggled in the 80s. the worst track (IMO) on Bowie's Let's Dance LP was the title track.
|
|
Lord Fickle
Global Moderator
Posts: 20,294
Likes: 7,097
|
Post by Lord Fickle on May 26, 2021 10:25:17 GMT
Not really. It would still have been crappy 80s disco. 😉 agreed. Nile Rodgers the disco maestro himself struggled in the 80s. the worst track (IMO) on Bowie's Let's Dance LP was the title track. Ironically, that was the album that got me into Bowie! Loved the big drum sound, and investigated the rest of his catalogue from there.
|
|
BrƎИsꓘi
Administrator
They called it paradise, I don't know why...You call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye.
Posts: 3,698
Likes: 2,794
|
Post by BrƎИsꓘi on May 26, 2021 11:10:43 GMT
agreed. Nile Rodgers the disco maestro himself struggled in the 80s. the worst track (IMO) on Bowie's Let's Dance LP was the title track. Ironically, that was the album that got me into Bowie! Loved the big drum sound, and investigated the rest of his catalogue from there. ah, i see. i'd been a Bowie fan since around 74 - and LD came as a shock. there are some standouts: Modern Love being one. but the disco feel leaves me cold. odd i know, because generally i like disco and love soul music.
|
|
Rick
Satyr
Posts: 69
Likes: 36
|
Post by Rick on May 28, 2021 17:08:00 GMT
The version with the extended outro...damn, so good. You mean the album version? Wasn't aware of a longer one, but there is an 'extended' version on YouTube which just repeats the last chorus before the outro. Not sure if that one is official or just a fan mix, but suspect the latter. Album version indeed.
|
|
|
Post by musiclandmunich on May 29, 2021 3:30:16 GMT
Why WWTLF is considered one of their "iconic" hits nowadays ? One aspect might be that there is a lack of these kind of tracks in todays music.
Aside of that I think the song is clearly more a grower than a shower.
|
|
timssor
Tatterdemalion
Posts: 4
Likes: 8
|
Post by timssor on Jul 7, 2021 12:00:19 GMT
I'll probably get a load of abuse for this, but I use this song (along with Barcelona) as illustrations of "Shouty Freddie" being the reason I can't listen to a lot of the later Queen stuff. Is this really the man who sang "My Fairy King" with subtlety and control? I love Brian's earlier section though
|
|
Dimitris
Ploughman
Posts: 472
Likes: 279
|
Post by Dimitris on Jul 7, 2021 16:18:46 GMT
I think it is the very good lyrics, the Queen plus orchestra, very beautiful vocals, guitar and general atmosphere. Compare to some other 80s ballads, WWTLFE is higher on quality and esthetic. Recently the song has a good use on Rick and Morty season 5 episode 2 post credit m.youtube.com/watch?v=dq5hQNBgpHw
|
|