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Post by macduff77 on Jun 5, 2021 18:48:46 GMT
I wanted to start a thread about what the best sounding physical releases are for each album (in everyone's opinion, naturally).
During the pandemic, I've had lots of time to sit and listen to my collection. I started reading up on various releases on the Steve Hoffman music forum and there are a few different threads discussing various Queen releases and what the best are. On one of them, someone recommended listening to the 2004 Japan Mini LP CDs for some albums. I picked up "Sheer Heart Attack" and "Jazz" and thought they sounded excellent. This lead me down the rabbit hole and I have now got the rest of that series purchased and slowly trickling in (much to my wife's annoyance).
From what I own, here is what I consider my favourite sounding CD releases (I'm excluding live):
Queen - 2011 Remaster Queen II - 2011 Remaster Sheer Heart Attack - 2004 Japan Mini LP (I have the 1986 UK version on order) A Night At The Opera - MFSL A Day At The Races - MFSL News of the World - MFSL Jazz - 2004 Japan Mini LP (I have the 1986 UK version on order) The Game - Toss-up between MFSL and 1986 version (I like both equally) Greatest Hits - 2011 Remaster (although the 1986 UK version sounds nice and clean) Flash - 2011 Remaster Hot Space - 2011 Remaster The Works - 2011 Remaster (I have 1984 original and 2004 Japan on order) A Kind of Magic - 2011 Remaster (I have the 2004 Japan on order) The Miracle - 2011 Remaster, slightly over the 2004 Japan release Innuendo - Toss up between 2004 Japan and 2011 Remaster (I find the original 1991 release low and lacking detail and sound) Greatest Hits II - 2011 Remaster Made In Heaven - 2011 Remaster (I have 2004 on order)
I had listened to the Hollywood Records version for years until the 2011 Remasters. But Now that I've heard various 1986 versions and the 2004 Japan Minis, I've started listening to those more than the 2011 Remasters. I'd never bothered about the so-called Loud Noise war, but I do now see a difference between 2011 and the others. I had also read about the 2004's being Noise Reductioned to death by Peter Mew, but I can’t tell what is impacted by this. I feel the 2004's sound close to vinyl... but maybe it's just me?
So, saying that, what is YOUR favourite sounding release.... ?
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Jun 5, 2021 20:04:54 GMT
Nice topic. Not one I can really contribute much to as I've not really listened to them comparatively. I do remember the improvement of the 1993 remasters over the originals, as some of the tracks on the original ADATR CD had about half a second cut from the beginnings, but now my default is to the 2011 remasters, not least because they're all in one box so I can locate them easily!
I seem to recall that the Japanese ones are the same masters as the Hollywood CDs, only with quite heavy noise reduction, but I could be wrong. I also heard the Japanese SACDs but they didn't sound any different to the 2011s to me, and apparently use the same mastering. Sometimes it seems things are just repressed on different formats, but if the source is the same they're not going to be significantly better.
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Post by macduff77 on Jun 5, 2021 22:45:27 GMT
Thanks. Yeah, I’ve heard the SACDs sound very similar too, but haven’t had the opportunity to hear them first hand. According to some topics over at Steve Hoffman forum, the 2001 Japanese remasters were newer ones from Hollywood, but then some additional re-work was done 2004 again, but under the supervision of Justin Shirley Smith. Some listeners swear the original CD releases from the 80’s are superior than any remaster (especially the ‘Target’ issues). Ultimately, I think it comes to one’s own preference and what kind of audio setup you may have. Nice topic. Not one I can really contribute much to as I've not really listened to them comparatively. I do remember the improvement of the 1993 remasters over the originals, as some of the tracks on the original ADATR CD had about half a second cut from the beginnings, but now my default is to the 2011 remasters, not least because they're all in one box so I can locate them easily! I seem to recall that the Japanese ones are the same masters as the Hollywood CDs, only with quite heavy noise reduction, but I could be wrong. I also heard the Japanese SACDs but they didn't sound any different to the 2011s to me, and apparently use the same mastering. Sometimes it seems things are just repressed on different formats, but if the source is the same they're not going to be significantly better.
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Jun 5, 2021 22:58:48 GMT
Thanks. Yeah, I’ve heard the SACDs sound very similar too, but haven’t had the opportunity to hear them first hand. According to some topics over at Steve Hoffman forum, the 2001 Japanese remasters were newer ones from Hollywood, but then some additional re-work was done 2004 again, but under the supervision of Justin Shirley Smith. Some listeners swear the original CD releases from the 80’s are superior than any remaster (especially the ‘Target’ issues). Ultimately, I think it comes to one’s own preference and what kind of audio setup you may have. Yes indeed. I listen to 95% of my music now on a phone, once processed through iTunes, so the nuances of the mastering get somewhat lost, although I do quite often do my own 'remastering' for EQ and volume balance. So, are the 80s Target issues different from the UK / EU editions? A lot of audiophiles do prefer earlier masters as they tend not to be so compressed, but I couldn't put up with those clipped intros on ADATR if they're still present.
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Jun 5, 2021 23:03:34 GMT
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Post by macduff77 on Jun 5, 2021 23:31:33 GMT
Yup, those are the ones. I haven’t found one I can afford at the moment, but I’d be interested in hearing if they really are superior.
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n39
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Post by n39 on Jun 6, 2021 1:05:19 GMT
I'm sure cmi can offer the best answer to this. After all, he listened to all available releases to find the best quality for his Expanded Collection.
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Post by deathtoming on Jun 6, 2021 3:37:51 GMT
I wanted to start a thread about what the best sounding physical releases are for each album (in everyone's opinion, naturally). This topic is of interest to me because I've been on a mission to find the best sounding CDs, too. I have a hard time hearing the difference between masters most of the time, so I'd love it if people can also point out specific differences they've noticed. For example, I remember someone commented on some other forum that they could hear things in the 2011 remaster of The Works that they never noticed before, but didn't say what. I would love to know what they heard so that I can try to hear it myself. For example, here's one: the jump from mono to stereo in Mustapha sounds fantastic on headphones on the '80s EMI CD and the 2011 remaster, but not so on the 1991 Hollywood remaster! It's almost like they tried to "correct" the dynamic range there, so the punch is gone. Still, I realize that sometimes it's more about the overall sound, like Queen II sounding clearer in the 2011 remaster.
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cmi
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Post by cmi on Jun 6, 2021 11:59:34 GMT
That's exactly what they've done. Stereo part was really much louder than mono in Mustapha, so there was an impact on your perception. 1991 remaster corrected this hudge difference in volume on this track. As I remember some parts of Let Me Entertain You were corrected as well.
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Jun 6, 2021 12:09:00 GMT
That's exactly what they've done. Stereo part was really much louder than mono in Mustapha, so there was an impact on your perception. 1991 remaster corrected this hudge difference in volume on this track. As I remember some parts of Let Me Entertain You were corrected as well. I think the original 1986 CD still demonstrated the full dynamic effect, and subsequent masters have 'flattened' it a bit more each time.
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dysan
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Post by dysan on Jun 6, 2021 14:32:10 GMT
I had a look at a few wave forms and Mustapha is interesting. On the 1987 Japanese version the first mono bit is louder than the 2011 version but the stereo section is quieter. But on the second mono section it is louder on the 2011 master with the final stereo section bumped right up. Fair enough levels are changed to the taste of the engineer to 'normalise' it and even it out, but it takes you steps away from the original even it's just your mind telling you it's not the original. I think that's why generally I like the earliest CDs I can find, less screwing around. Similar discussions about Bowie CDs. His original 80s RCA discs were derided for decades but now people are preferring them despite their faults as a more natural sound closer to the master. Early 90s mastering seemed thinner so supposedly 'clearer' and those done more recently tend to be more compressed to give the impression of bass. For me, it's the same with Queen. Elektra and 80s Japanese please!
EDIT: Actually that's got me thinking. While we know it's all subjective, I remembered the reasons why I went back to 'source' as it were. Being a child of the 80s, my first Queen and Bowie albums were on those pastel coloured original EMI and RCA cassettes (respectively). Discarding those in favour of the 90s CDs (Hollywood and Rykodisc respectively) when I first got a player in 1990/1 I eventually moved away from those artists and didn't listen much. There would be periods of course, usually borne out of nostalgia and I'd listen exclusively to the CD. Something odd happened around 2000. At a loss for anything to listen to in the car (tape deck, of course), I stuck in some 1980s RCA Bowie tape and they sounded amazing. Much more warm and richer than the CDs - that 'X' you can't quite place. Was it because it was all analogue? Maybe. I put 2 and 2 together and sought out some Bowie RCA CDs (the derided ones I mentioned earlier) and I got the same feeling feeling from them. Perhaps in my mind, perhaps real but for me it somehow connected me back to those first days of hearing these albums for the first time. Either way, from that day I've only listened to the earliest CDs I can find (FLAC rips, naturally). If you're much younger that type of nostalgia might not exist but it is certainly a huge part of the joy of listening for me. Sorry, that went on a bit.
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Post by macduff77 on Jun 6, 2021 15:58:05 GMT
Yeah, I read something similar about The Works. I’ve not figured out what it is referencing. For Jazz, for the moment at least, I’m enjoying the sound of the 2004 Japan CD over the 2011. Mustapha sounds crisp and clean. Very natural. I’m looking forward to hearing the ‘86 UK version when it arrives. I wanted to start a thread about what the best sounding physical releases are for each album (in everyone's opinion, naturally). This topic is of interest to me because I've been on a mission to find the best sounding CDs, too. I have a hard time hearing the difference between masters most of the time, so I'd love it if people can also point out specific differences they've noticed. For example, I remember someone commented on some other forum that they could hear things in the 2011 remaster of The Works that they never noticed before, but didn't say what. I would love to know what they heard so that I can try to hear it myself. For example, here's one: the jump from mono to stereo in Mustapha sounds fantastic on headphones on the '80s EMI CD and the 2011 remaster, but not so on the 1991 Hollywood remaster! It's almost like they tried to "correct" the dynamic range there, so the punch is gone. Still, I realize that sometimes it's more about the overall sound, like Queen II sounding clearer in the 2011 remaster.
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Jun 6, 2021 21:19:42 GMT
I've just run Mustapha through Adobe Audition and it seems the 'mono' parts are not true mono. There is some variation in the two channel outputs, although this may be barely discernible when listening. Same with the 1986 and 2011 masters.
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Post by deathtoming on Jun 6, 2021 22:09:41 GMT
That's exactly what they've done. Stereo part was really much louder than mono in Mustapha, so there was an impact on your perception. 1991 remaster corrected this hudge difference in volume on this track. As I remember some parts of Let Me Entertain You were corrected as well. Yeah, I know they made it louder when they switch to stereo, but I think that's exactly what was needed for that part of the song. Going from mono to stereo alone isn't as impactful, and if the increase in volume was the intended effect originally, I think they should have left it alone. Possibly this is why it was brought back by the 2011 remaster (I don't know about the other remasters between 1991 and 2011). Thanks for bringing up Let Me Entertain You -- I'll have to give that a listen again, as my 1991 discs don't get played anymore.
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Post by deathtoming on Jun 6, 2021 22:33:16 GMT
For me, it's the same with Queen. Elektra and 80s Japanese please! My understanding is that the Japanese CP32 '80s CDs have the same mastering as their UK/Europe EMI counterparts, but that some people still prefer their sound. I liked your anecdote about the Bowie tapes/CDs. I guess one factor we can't discount when discussing favourite CDs/masters is the power of nostalgia or familiarity. My first tapes/CDs were the '91 Hollywoods, so it's their version of It's Late and In the Lap Of the Gods with errors that I heard first. To this day, even though I've heard the error-free versions way more than the Hollywood versions by now, those "extra" few seconds sound a bit strange to me, and it feels like I'm listening to an out take or something. I'm not saying the Hollywood version of those two tracks are my favourites, but my brain is most comfortable with them.
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Jake12
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Post by Jake12 on Jun 8, 2021 13:54:00 GMT
I really love the 1986 CDs. For me those are the best since that’s really the original sound since it was a direct transfer from the stereo tapes
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dysan
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Post by dysan on Jun 8, 2021 17:27:44 GMT
For me, it's the same with Queen. Elektra and 80s Japanese please! My understanding is that the Japanese CP32 '80s CDs have the same mastering as their UK/Europe EMI counterparts, but that some people still prefer their sound. I liked your anecdote about the Bowie tapes/CDs. I guess one factor we can't discount when discussing favourite CDs/masters is the power of nostalgia or familiarity. My first tapes/CDs were the '91 Hollywoods, so it's their version of It's Late and In the Lap Of the Gods with errors that I heard first. To this day, even though I've heard the error-free versions way more than the Hollywood versions by now, those "extra" few seconds sound a bit strange to me, and it feels like I'm listening to an out take or something. I'm not saying the Hollywood version of those two tracks are my favourites, but my brain is most comfortable with them. I know what you mean - Sweet Lady still sounds odd to me without the very brief whirl noise just before the chorus that was on my first vinyl copy 35 years ago I just compared SHA and ANATO 80s Jap vs 80s Europe and while there's nothing between them to my ears, the waveforms are slightly different. Perhaps different copies from the same master and sent for manufacture it's that slight. There's a whole subculture of 80s Bowie CD discussion as the Japanese and German 80s discs are colossally different in places, different fades, obviously different EQ. Here's an article by the guy who made them and here's a PDF someone made comparing the different masters. Both fascinating and well worth a read even if Bowie isn't your thing but different masters are.
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Post by macduff77 on Jun 8, 2021 17:34:52 GMT
I should have Jazz, Sheer Heart Attack, News of the World (1986 UK Swindon-pressed) CD's coming this week and an original 1984 The Works CD. I'm curious to see how they sound compared to my other selections.
I was listening to The Game on the 1986 CD today (my favourite album) and it sounds so different than the 2004/2011 remasters. Closer to the vinyl (which is my fav). I find it so interesting to hear all these different sounding releases. I hadn't really been bothered or cared before, but I guess I've had too much time on my hands this last 18 months!!
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dysan
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Post by dysan on Jun 8, 2021 17:39:51 GMT
I should have Jazz, Sheer Heart Attack, News of the World (1986 UK Swindon-pressed) CD's coming this week and an original 1984 The Works CD. I'm curious to see how they sound compared to my other selections. I was listening to The Game on the 1986 CD today (my favourite album) and it sounds so different than the 2004/2011 remasters. Closer to the vinyl (which is my fav). I find it so interesting to hear all these different sounding releases. I hadn't really been bothered or cared before, but I guess I've had too much time on my hands this last 18 months!! Yeah this sort of thing is lethal once you get into it Enjoy the journey!
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Post by deathtoming on Jun 9, 2021 2:02:05 GMT
I really love the 1986 CDs. For me those are the best since that’s really the original sound since it was a direct transfer from the stereo tapes If the 1986 CDs were direct transfers, what about the earlier CDs from Elektra, for Greatest Hits, News of the World, and The Game from '83-'84, which are also popular for their sound? I have those earlier Target CDs and the later EMIs, and I remember The Game definitely sounds different, with Freddie's vocals in Play the Game and Save Me standing out in particular. If the '86 CDs were direct transfers, were the Elektra CDs remastered? (Asking because I'm genuinely curious.)
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Post by deathtoming on Jun 9, 2021 2:42:49 GMT
I know what you mean - Sweet Lady still sounds odd to me without the very brief whirl noise just before the chorus that was on my first vinyl copy 35 years ago I just compared SHA and ANATO 80s Jap vs 80s Europe and while there's nothing between them to my ears, the waveforms are slightly different. Perhaps different copies from the same master and sent for manufacture it's that slight. There's a whole subculture of 80s Bowie CD discussion as the Japanese and German 80s discs are colossally different in places, different fades, obviously different EQ. Here's an article by the guy who made them and here's a PDF someone made comparing the different masters. Both fascinating and well worth a read even if Bowie isn't your thing but different masters are. Ah, thanks for checking out the waveforms! I just tried to do the same to compare my '80s West German Hot Space and Jazz CDs with the Japanese CP32s, but my laptop's optical drive has failed me. But if there is a difference between Europe and Japanese EMIs, I guess that means there can be slight differences between other countries of manufacture? I suppose that would explain why Swindon and West German CDs seem to be slightly more popular than Dutch and Italian pressings. Thanks for those Bowie links. I'd love to see something similar for Queen CDs. Interesting to also read about the Bowie booklet/inlay/cover design, too -- I love this kind of stuff.
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Post by deathtoming on Jun 9, 2021 3:01:02 GMT
I should have Jazz, Sheer Heart Attack, News of the World (1986 UK Swindon-pressed) CD's coming this week and an original 1984 The Works CD. I'm curious to see how they sound compared to my other selections. I was listening to The Game on the 1986 CD today (my favourite album) and it sounds so different than the 2004/2011 remasters. Closer to the vinyl (which is my fav). I find it so interesting to hear all these different sounding releases. I hadn't really been bothered or cared before, but I guess I've had too much time on my hands this last 18 months!! If you notice any specific differences between those CDs you mentioned and say the 2011 discs, please let me know what they are, as I want to try if I can hear the differences, too. A while ago I did a listening comparison between several versions of The Game, and the Elektra Target CD stood out as the most distinct, but not in a great way to me. Overall, the sound seemed stifled. Then there's the DVD-Audio of The Game, which gives the biggest bang for your buck if you're looking for different sounds.
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Post by macduff77 on Jun 9, 2021 3:05:42 GMT
For sure, will do. It was recommended to me to get Jazz and Sheer Heart Attack and they happened to have the other 2 CDs, so went ahead and ordered them at same time. I forgot about The Game MFSL - listened to that today and I’m leaning towards that as the definitive version for now. Haha. I should have Jazz, Sheer Heart Attack, News of the World (1986 UK Swindon-pressed) CD's coming this week and an original 1984 The Works CD. I'm curious to see how they sound compared to my other selections. I was listening to The Game on the 1986 CD today (my favourite album) and it sounds so different than the 2004/2011 remasters. Closer to the vinyl (which is my fav). I find it so interesting to hear all these different sounding releases. I hadn't really been bothered or cared before, but I guess I've had too much time on my hands this last 18 months!! If you notice any specific differences between those CDs you mentioned and say the 2011 discs, please let me know what they are, as I want to try if I can hear the differences, too. A while ago I did a listening comparison between several versions of The Game, and the Elektra Target CD stood out as the most distinct, but not in a great way to me. Overall, the sound seemed stifled. Then there's the DVD-Audio of The Game, which gives the biggest bang for your buck if you're looking for different sounds.
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Dimitris
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Post by Dimitris on Jun 10, 2021 5:19:59 GMT
Maybe it's just my hearing, I have all first Queen cds from 80s pressing EMI, I think they are missing some brightness and when I gave them a listen on a very good sound system which my brother in law has, the listening was very good, but the sound limitations of cds were revealed.
When 2011 reissued came I thought that, they wanted to make the cds to sound like a digital vinyl...
For digital audio I prefer the Queen orb USB stick. With some EQ sounds very good.
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rub3945
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Post by rub3945 on Jun 11, 2021 11:03:58 GMT
This is great reading everyone's different opinions and what each of us look for in the sound! I'm one who tends to prefer the more natural sounding discs.
I'm one of those who swears by the Elektra Target versions of NOTW and The Game. Not only do these have the natural sounding flat transfers that the 1986 EMI issues have, but the Target versions are impeccably clear too. I try not to play these discs too much as they did cost considerably more than your average CD, but when I do, the sound blows me away every time! I highly recommend these if you can find them at an affordable price.
For ANATO, there are plenty of amazing versions and you can't go wrong with any of them. My personal favourite is the 2000 DCC Hollywood Remaster. Cleaner sound than the 1986 EMI CD, but just as natural sounding, if not more. Another one that isn't easy to find cheap, but every now and then, the odd one pops up on eBay without the big fancy box for much cheaper.
The MFSL version of ADATR is my clear winner. This is the one album of the 1986 EMI releases I feel could've been better. Not only the missing half-second or so at the start of You And I, but I feel it lacks a considerable amount of clarity compared to the rest. The MFSL version solves these issues for me and is the most natural-sounding alternative. Big fan of this one! Found mine dirt cheap on eBay with water damaged inserts. Disc is still perfect 👌
For the rest, the 1986-onwards EMI releases are my favourites. They're also flat transfers, and while not quite as crisp in sound quality as the Elektra Target discs, they're pretty close for the most part! Can't go wrong with these releases on a whole and are the most affordable of the ones mentioned.
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antonio
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Post by antonio on Jun 11, 2021 11:31:56 GMT
I try not to play these discs too much as they did cost considerably more than your average CD, but when I do, the sound blows me away every time! I highly recommend these if you can find them at an affordable price.
Have you tried to extract the tracks to a HD or USB?
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rub3945
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Post by rub3945 on Jun 11, 2021 23:20:16 GMT
I try not to play these discs too much as they did cost considerably more than your average CD, but when I do, the sound blows me away every time! I highly recommend these if you can find them at an affordable price.
Have you tried to extract the tracks to a HD or USB?
Yes, made backups of everything through EAC onto an external hard drive. I put them onto my phone too so I can still enjoy but through the tinny speaker, the mastering differences aren't very noticeable (headphones definitely help though). My big old CD player is the only thing I have that does these discs justice. About time to upgrade 😅
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rylan2020
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Post by rylan2020 on Jun 12, 2021 6:43:04 GMT
The best sounding never really bothered me. It was the volume that concerned me for me at least the Target, 80’s and Hollywood CD’s are perfect volume. It seems with the Digital Master Series in 1993 they were fully jumping head first in to the loudness wars. The 2011 remasters for me are just too loud. I mean I grew up with the Hollywood cd’s and while some of the bonus tracks are horrible others are ok. It’s just what I’m used to.
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Post by dreamersball on Jun 13, 2021 15:24:05 GMT
I like to listen to the 80s EMI CDs, particularly the Japanese pressings (CP32) as I've heard those are slightly better than the UK/W. Germany pressings, but those are probably pretty good too.
For each album I usually listen to:
Queen - EMI CP32 Queen II - 2011 Remaster Sheer Heart Attack - EMI CP32 A Night At The Opera - 2000 DCC Remaster A Day At The Races - EMI CP32 News Of The World - 1984 Target Jazz - EMI CP32 The Game - EMI CP32 Flash Gordon - I don't listen to this one but I'd imagine the CP32 is best Hot Space - EMI CP32 The Works - EMI CP35 A Kind Of Magic - EMI CP32 The Miracle - EMI CP32 Innuendo - EMI CDP Made In Heaven - EMI TOCP
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Post by blackbird on Jun 13, 2021 17:00:05 GMT
I like early 80s CD too, but they're cut off at 20khz?
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