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Post by kinetic74 on Jul 14, 2021 4:30:35 GMT
In Jim Jenkins book "As It Began" it states...
"The only problem they were having with the recording and mixing of the album was the absence of a bass player. John was spending much of his time in Biarritz with his family and little of it at the studios"
Songwriting wise...
Innuendo was mainly Taylor and Mercury from a group jam
I'm Going Slightly Mad, Don't Try So Hard, All God's People, Delilah were Mercury tracks
Headlong, I Can't Live with You and The Show Must Go On were Brian songs
Ride the Wild Wind and These Are the Days of Our Lives are Roger tracks
with The Hitman and Bijou by both Mercury and May
...leaving apparently ZERO tracks written by John?
Seems very strange for a successful songwriter like him. I wonder how many tracks Brian played bass on and just what involvement we think John actually had?
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rogercz
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Post by rogercz on Jul 14, 2021 8:14:39 GMT
In Jim Jenkins book "As It Began" it states... "The only problem they were having with the recording and mixing of the album was the absence of a bass player. John was spending much of his time in Biarritz with his family and little of it at the studios" Songwriting wise... Innuendo was mainly Taylor and Mercury from a group jam I'm Going Slightly Mad, Don't Try So Hard, All God's People, Delilah were Mercury tracks Headlong, I Can't Live with You and The Show Must Go On were Brian songs Ride the Wild Wind and These Are the Days of Our Lives are Roger tracks with The Hitman and Bijou by both Mercury and May ...leaving apparently ZERO tracks written by John? Seems very strange for a successful songwriter like him. I wonder how many tracks Brian played bass on and just what involvement we think John actually had? One well-known collector had once the chance to talk to Innuendo producer David Richards and he was told that the group hired for the session external bassplayer. Noboy will confirm it since it would ruin the Queen legend...
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Post by pimderks on Jul 14, 2021 8:29:39 GMT
What I find strange is that John and Roger were apparently the ones who took the lead on Made In Heaven. They did perform together as Queen in 1993. Roger even said they would continue as Queen, "with or without Brian". Meanwhile it seems common knowledge that after the Magic Tour John became less involved in the band/studio.
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Jul 14, 2021 9:00:44 GMT
Maybe John just couldn't handle the situation with Freddie? Then again, you'd have thought he would have wanted to be involved in what was clearly going to be their last album together as a band.
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Post by ThomasQuinn on Jul 14, 2021 9:50:37 GMT
As I understand it, there have been strong hints that John was going through a mentally bad phase in the late '80s (which may or may not have involved some really bad experiences with drugs), and that on top of that he had a hard time dealing with Freddie's declining health and inevitably nearing death - I think Roger said sometime in the late '90s that John had been "severely traumatized" by losing Freddie. MIH may have been therapeutic, while working on Innuendo may have been exceedingly painful, as they were all aware it was going to be Freddie's last album.
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georg
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Post by georg on Jul 14, 2021 11:21:25 GMT
In Jim Jenkins book "As It Began" it states... "The only problem they were having with the recording and mixing of the album was the absence of a bass player. John was spending much of his time in Biarritz with his family and little of it at the studios" Songwriting wise... Innuendo was mainly Taylor and Mercury from a group jam I'm Going Slightly Mad, Don't Try So Hard, All God's People, Delilah were Mercury tracks Headlong, I Can't Live with You and The Show Must Go On were Brian songs Ride the Wild Wind and These Are the Days of Our Lives are Roger tracks with The Hitman and Bijou by both Mercury and May ...leaving apparently ZERO tracks written by John? Seems very strange for a successful songwriter like him. I wonder how many tracks Brian played bass on and just what involvement we think John actually had? One well-known collector had once the chance to talk to Innuendo producer David Richards and he was told that the group hired for the session external bassplayer. Noboy will confirm it since it would ruin the Queen legend... I need proof of this exchange before I even remotely consider buying this story. Hiring an external bass player would make no sense when you have bass synths (and Roger, and even Brian, who dabbled in bass occasionally).
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rogercz
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Post by rogercz on Jul 14, 2021 12:44:32 GMT
One well-known collector had once the chance to talk to Innuendo producer David Richards and he was told that the group hired for the session external bassplayer. Noboy will confirm it since it would ruin the Queen legend... I need proof of this exchange before I even remotely consider buying this story. Hiring an external bass player would make no sense when you have bass synths (and Roger, and even Brian, who dabbled in bass occasionally). I don't know if that could be true, just saying what I was told by a collector and one of the biggest Queen fans in Europe. Even him is just saying what he was told from one source, David Richards, who is nowadays sadly dead. He is not in touch with the other people who could confirm or deny that and I doubt they would be willing to talk about these topic. I have no reason to not trust him. So there is only one question remaining for me - why would DR said that they hired bassplayer, if it wasn't true?
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n39
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Post by n39 on Jul 14, 2021 13:52:55 GMT
Erdal Kizilcay's website credits him as playing on the following Queen related tracks:
Freddie MERCURY : Heaven For Everyone, All The God’s People.
• Queen : Compilation (Heaven For Everyone).
• Queen : last album : Yellow Breezes (Bass Guitar).
• Roger TAYLOR Album : The Cross.
Obviously a few miscredits, but here it clearly states that Kizilcay played on All God's People. Perhaps he was the hired session bassist? It would make sense, as he had worked with Freddie, Roger and David Richards in previous years.
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georg
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Post by georg on Jul 14, 2021 14:22:40 GMT
I need proof of this exchange before I even remotely consider buying this story. Hiring an external bass player would make no sense when you have bass synths (and Roger, and even Brian, who dabbled in bass occasionally). I don't know if that could be true, just saying what I was told by a collector and one of the biggest Queen fans in Europe. Even him is just saying what he was told from one source, David Richards, who is nowadays sadly dead. He is not in touch with the other people who could confirm or deny that and I doubt they would be willing to talk about these topic. I have no reason to not trust him. So there is only one question remaining for me - why would DR said that they hired bassplayer, if it wasn't true? Unless Brian, Roger, or John himself say otherwise, I have no reason to doubt John's involvement in the Innuendo sessions and that another bass player was hired. Regarding All God's People, there's a quote from Brian with Nuno Bettencourt where he said (I'm paraphrasing) the song was going to be for a Freddie solo project (not Barcelona) and he asked Brian to play guitar on it, but then it morphed into a Queen track, and he specifically said that Roger played drums and John played bass. That was in 1991. Also, Erdal Kizilcay is a multi instrumentalist, so while he is credited with bass on Yellow Breezes, he very well could have played literally any other instrument – not to sound like a pedant, but he is a classically-trained musician and, well, can play literally any instrument! – on the other songs. Additionally, he wasn't thanked in the Innuendo credits, but was in the Made In Heaven credits. But until this collector has proof otherwise, I choose to believe John was there.
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rogercz
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Post by rogercz on Jul 14, 2021 14:52:33 GMT
I don't know if that could be true, just saying what I was told by a collector and one of the biggest Queen fans in Europe. Even him is just saying what he was told from one source, David Richards, who is nowadays sadly dead. He is not in touch with the other people who could confirm or deny that and I doubt they would be willing to talk about these topic. I have no reason to not trust him. So there is only one question remaining for me - why would DR said that they hired bassplayer, if it wasn't true? Unless Brian, Roger, or John himself say otherwise, I have no reason to doubt John's involvement in the Innuendo sessions and that another bass player was hired. Regarding All God's People, there's a quote from Brian with Nuno Bettencourt where he said (I'm paraphrasing) the song was going to be for a Freddie solo project (not Barcelona) and he asked Brian to play guitar on it, but then it morphed into a Queen track, and he specifically said that Roger played drums and John played bass. That was in 1991. Also, Erdal Kizilcay is a multi instrumentalist, so while he is credited with bass on Yellow Breezes, he very well could have played literally any other instrument – not to sound like a pedant, but he is a classically-trained musician and, well, can play literally any instrument! – on the other songs. Additionally, he wasn't thanked in the Innuendo credits, but was in the Made In Heaven credits. But until this collector has proof otherwise, I choose to believe John was there. Sadly, he has no proof, they talked about it during some kind of convention or something like that and maybe that's the reason why he doesn't want to make this rumour public under his name. It's clear that this is just "allegation" and we will never know how exactly it was, because from Brian and Roger (nor John) we will never get any info even if it was true. I am not persuading you, I've never talked to anybody from the band or their team, so all I have is this statement and it's up to you all if you consider it as probable, believe it or refuse it. For me, it's possible that at least in some songs was need to replace John, because he was on holiday, treatment or whatever.
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jlf
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Post by jlf on Jul 15, 2021 4:18:03 GMT
Maybe John just couldn't handle the situation with Freddie? Then again, you'd have thought he would have wanted to be involved in what was clearly going to be their last album together as a band. But at the same time... with the Innuendo album being recorded in 1989-1990, and Freddie was fairly heavily involved during this time, maybe John didn't realise this was going to be the last album. I don't want to get into a Queenzone style "Freddie's last year" timeline here at all, but it could be that John had convinced himself that Freddie would be around to see the release of the album they started recording after Innuendo which of course became Made In Heaven. By all accounts although the Queen story is that after Live Aid and Barcelona, they became far closer and more integrated as a band, it was actually still a fairly fragmented time, with Roger on tour with the Cross, and Brian recording his solo tracks (some of which ended up as Queen tracks, granted), and Freddie convalescing. When someone is unwell, there's always that hope that they'll recover and be around, even when the situation is absolutely dire. It's amazing what you can convince yourself of during these times. It's also amazing what an ill person can do to appear as normal and as healthy as possible to the point where friends and family simply stop noticing that there's particularly anything wrong at certain times. So, in a sense, I wonder if John just didn't realise how bad things were, or ignored it. Let's not forget, he was also very young at the time, mid to late 30s, not having his 40th Birthday until '91. That's not young for a rock star but it's young in life.
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Post by saintjiub on Jul 15, 2021 4:45:13 GMT
In Jim Jenkins book "As It Began" it states... "The only problem they were having with the recording and mixing of the album was the absence of a bass player. John was spending much of his time in Biarritz with his family and little of it at the studios" Songwriting wise... Innuendo was mainly Taylor and Mercury from a group jam I'm Going Slightly Mad, Don't Try So Hard, All God's People, Delilah were Mercury tracks Headlong, I Can't Live with You and The Show Must Go On were Brian songs Ride the Wild Wind and These Are the Days of Our Lives are Roger tracks with The Hitman and Bijou by both Mercury and May ...leaving apparently ZERO tracks written by John? Seems very strange for a successful songwriter like him. I wonder how many tracks Brian played bass on and just what involvement we think John actually had? John had involvement with the Hitman:
"[The] finished version had very little to do with the original idea. Most of the riff came from Freddie. I wasn't even in the room when they wrote it. I changed the key and some of the notes to make it playable on the guitar. We finished the backing track, but it seemed to ramble. John sat down and decided to reconstruct the track. He changed the order. He changed everything. I went back and played on that. Then we filled in the gaps on the lyrics, did the harmonies and generally tidied up."
Brian May - 1991, Sunset Strip Hotel
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dysan
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Post by dysan on Jul 15, 2021 6:21:25 GMT
My take is that it's a combination of the above. The band had come together as a unit for The Miracle and following on so quickly it's conceivable John had nothing to offer writing-wise so focussed instead on the huge amount of ideas that were there. Through the eighties they were fairly fragmented in the studio so it's not unsurprising they weren't all around at the same time and as some songs were brought in from various solo projects different people were involved at different times. If John was having issues outside of music, the band was able to reconfigure like they had when other members weren't firing on all cylinders. The band dynamic returned to what it had been for the first albums with John as the happy silent quarter which probably suited everyone to keep the tension levels down for Freddie's benefit and speed. No conspiracy, it's just a band on their, what, 14th album?
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chowder
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Post by chowder on Jul 15, 2021 11:52:21 GMT
I can imagine that John liked the time off and enjoy it with his family after the AKOM era and before TM sessions began. Maybe he just wasn't willing to directly work on the follow-up being Innuendo after TM.
But it would be quite a shock (to me at least) in case he is really not present on this album at all. If so, I wonder what he was thinking when he was still taking part in the promotional work ie the video clips, interviews or photo shoots.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Jul 15, 2021 14:47:30 GMT
I can imagine that John liked the time off and enjoy it with his family after the AKOM era and before TM sessions began. Maybe he just wasn't willing to directly work on the follow-up being Innuendo after TM. But it would be quite a shock (to me at least) in case he is really not present on this album at all. If so, I wonder what he was thinking when he was still taking part in the promotional work ie the video clips, interviews or photo shoots. I don't think anyone's suggesting John wasn't on the album at all - just that he wasn't always around, for any number of reasons.
I find it hard to believe they'd bring in a session guy, but stranger things have happened. All kinds of parts on legendary songs were played by uncredited session guys, so anything's possible.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Jul 15, 2021 19:41:51 GMT
Erdal Kizilcay's website credits him as playing on the following Queen related tracks: Freddie MERCURY : Heaven For Everyone, All The God’s People. Obviously a few miscredits, but here it clearly states that Kizilcay played on All God's People. Perhaps he was the hired session bassist? Indeed, this began as a Freddie solo track in 1987, but who knows if any of this guy's parts are on the final version.
But on second thought, I'm inclined to say no - plenty of other vocals and instruments were credited to others on Queen songs in the past, so I can't see why an exception would be made for a bass part.
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Jul 15, 2021 20:56:31 GMT
Innuendo is my favorite album and what I love to call a return to form for the band. So it's troubling to read someone say David Richards recalls the band hiring a bassist. I'm certainly not someone to refute such a statement. Hopefully further light can be shed in the future. I'd hate to find out John was absent for even just one or two tracks on the album. It kind of taints the picture of the band being united and driven toward perfection during an otherwise sad time in the band's history.
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Post by kinetic74 on Jul 16, 2021 10:36:10 GMT
100% john plays bass on all the innuendo tracks. No question. I wonder why Jim Jenkins book said he was mostly absent. This is a book that was read and approved by the band...
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Post by kinetic74 on Jul 16, 2021 10:36:56 GMT
Innuendo is my favorite album and what I love to call a return to form for the band. So it's troubling to read someone say David Richards recalls the band hiring a bassist. I'm certainly not someone to refute such a statement. Hopefully further light can be shed in the future. I'd hate to find out John was absent for even just one or two tracks on the album. It kind of taints the picture of the band being united and driven toward perfection during an otherwise sad time in the band's history. Yes, it is odd. But as above Jim Jenkins' book states that. And that was an official book, apparently read and approved by the band... odd.
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Jul 16, 2021 11:14:37 GMT
Innuendo is my favorite album and what I love to call a return to form for the band. So it's troubling to read someone say David Richards recalls the band hiring a bassist. I'm certainly not someone to refute such a statement. Hopefully further light can be shed in the future. I'd hate to find out John was absent for even just one or two tracks on the album. It kind of taints the picture of the band being united and driven toward perfection during an otherwise sad time in the band's history. Yes, it is odd. But as above Jim Jenkins' book states that. And that was an official book, apparently read and approved by the band... odd. Maybe he was absent for much of the writing process but arrived just to record his parts in more of an improvisational manner? You know, quick in and out sessions? Just spit balling here.
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Rick
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Post by Rick on Jul 16, 2021 13:33:44 GMT
100% john plays bass on all the innuendo tracks. No question. The human bass parts all sound like John to me, I agree. His style is so recognisable. Especially in songs like Slightly Mad, Hard, Days and Show. Lots of high notes. John bought a whole bass, because he was going to use the whole bass.
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rogercz
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Post by rogercz on Jul 16, 2021 17:29:15 GMT
Innuendo is my favorite album and what I love to call a return to form for the band. So it's troubling to read someone say David Richards recalls the band hiring a bassist. I'm certainly not someone to refute such a statement. Hopefully further light can be shed in the future. I'd hate to find out John was absent for even just one or two tracks on the album. It kind of taints the picture of the band being united and driven toward perfection during an otherwise sad time in the band's history. The same for me, I was shocked and I really wish John was around and played all the songs. Luckily, we will probably never know for sure, so we could think that he was ...
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n39
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Post by n39 on Jul 16, 2021 20:00:52 GMT
Erdal Kizilcay's website credits him as playing on the following Queen related tracks: Freddie MERCURY : Heaven For Everyone, All The God’s People. Obviously a few miscredits, but here it clearly states that Kizilcay played on All God's People. Perhaps he was the hired session bassist? Indeed, this began as a Freddie solo track in 1987, but who knows if any of this guy's parts are on the final version.
But on second thought, I'm inclined to say no - plenty of other vocals and instruments were credited to others on Queen songs in the past, so I can't see why an exception would be made for a bass part.
Check my external performers thread. The majority of external players involved on Queen tracks were uncredited.
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n39
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Post by n39 on Jul 16, 2021 20:01:41 GMT
100% john plays bass on all the innuendo tracks. No question. Source...? It's all well and good saying that but with no evidence, it clearly isn't "100% no question".
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Jul 17, 2021 4:18:26 GMT
I just want to say that this topic has been on my mind a lot. I've actually contemplated reaching out to Jim Jenkins about it, not that he would say much, but still. It's hard to think John would have been so distant at the time. But perhaps the writing was on the wall and it was the beginning of him eventually walking completely away.
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katby
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Post by katby on Jul 17, 2021 21:58:23 GMT
John Deacon has a distinctive style, tone and personality on the bass that would be very hard for a session musician to replicate. It is hard enough to replicate someone's bass tone, but to compose a new bassline in the style of that person, is even harder. I think it's virtually impossible for someone other than John Deacon to have recorded an album full of John Deacon basslines.
However, if I had to pick a couple of basslines that have less Deacon trademarks and more plausibly could have been recorded by someone else, the first would be Delilah. The second, perhaps surprisingly, is Innuendo.
The bassline for Innuendo is a little bland, considering the scope of the song. But the main 'evidence' is Steve Howe's account of the recording session, where John isn't mentioned. Maybe they hired a session musician to record while Steve was there. It's possible that he wasn't there on that day and recorded his part later, of course. Perhaps when David Richards said John wasn't involved with Innuendo, he was referring to the song - not the album. That seems like a plausible misunderstanding.
As for the Jim Jenkins claim that John wasn't in the studio a lot - that isn't really shocking or evidence that he didn't play bass on the album. As John admits in the One Vision documentary from 1985, "I was late to the recording sessions because I was on holiday at the time... It's credited as a Queen composition but to be honest, it's mainly Roger, Brian and Freddie that did most of the writing." John being on holiday with his family isn't anything new. It didn't mean he was completely uninvolved then, just as I don't believe he was uninvolved with Innuendo. We know from Brian that he arranged The Hitman, a heavy metal song he probably didn't like very much. It simply doesn't make sense for him to arrange a song in a genre he doesn't like, but not be involved with the rest of the album.
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Jul 17, 2021 22:53:10 GMT
John Deacon has a distinctive style, tone and personality on the bass that would be very hard for a session musician to replicate. It is hard enough to replicate someone's bass tone, but to compose a new bassline in the style of that person, is even harder. I think it's virtually impossible for someone other than John Deacon to have recorded an album full of John Deacon basslines. However, if I had to pick a couple of basslines that have less Deacon trademarks and more plausibly could have been recorded by someone else, the first would be Delilah. The second, perhaps surprisingly, is Innuendo. The bassline for Innuendo is a little bland, considering the scope of the song. But the main 'evidence' is Steve Howe's account of the recording session, where John isn't mentioned. Maybe they hired a session musician to record while Steve was there. It's possible that he wasn't there on that day and recorded his part later, of course. Perhaps when David Richards said John wasn't involved with Innuendo, he was referring to the song - not the album. That seems like a plausible misunderstanding. As for the Jim Jenkins claim that John wasn't in the studio a lot - that isn't really shocking or evidence that he didn't play bass on the album. As John admits in the One Vision documentary from 1985, "I was late to the recording sessions because I was on holiday at the time... It's credited as a Queen composition but to be honest, it's mainly Roger, Brian and Freddie that did most of the writing." John being on holiday with his family isn't anything new. It didn't mean he was completely uninvolved then, just as I don't believe he was uninvolved with Innuendo. We know from Brian that he arranged The Hitman, a heavy metal song he probably didn't like very much. It simply doesn't make sense for him to arrange a song in a genre he doesn't like, but not be involved with the rest of the album. I was listening to Innuendo in the car specifically listening for parts that sound less like John Deacon. Like you, Innuendo (the track) raised a red flag. Indeed, it's a bit bland, and in the middle part there really isn't much going on in his department. A lot of it is synth heavy with the Spanish guitar flourishes. However, I would argue the song doesn't really call for melodic bass lines. It's pretty straightforward, but then again, John could add things someone else would never dream of doing. So yeah. And excellent point regarding David Richard's comment. Perhaps he was referring to the track and not the album. I'm VERY interested in uncovering further information about this because I was under the impression that the song evolved out of a jam session (and I'd like to think John was in on it). I also agree about Delilah. But then songs like I'm Going Slightly Mad, The Show Must Go On, and These Are The Days Of Our Lives are so distinctively John Deacon. Such melodic and beautiful playing that a typical bass player just wouldn't think of doing. The plus is that this topic has given me reason to give the bass parts a deeper listen. And thus I have so much more respect for John's work.
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Jul 17, 2021 23:22:23 GMT
The plus is that this topic has given me reason to give the bass parts a deeper listen. See what you did there...
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Post by The Real Wizard on Jul 18, 2021 11:05:07 GMT
My take is that it's a combination of the above. The band had come together as a unit for The Miracle and following on so quickly it's conceivable John had nothing to offer writing-wise so focussed instead on the huge amount of ideas that were there. Through the eighties they were fairly fragmented in the studio so it's not unsurprising they weren't all around at the same time and as some songs were brought in from various solo projects different people were involved at different times. If John was having issues outside of music, the band was able to reconfigure like they had when other members weren't firing on all cylinders. The band dynamic returned to what it had been for the first albums with John as the happy silent quarter which probably suited everyone to keep the tension levels down for Freddie's benefit and speed. No conspiracy, it's just a band on their, what, 14th album? Indeed. It could be similar to the White Album where it was simply a case of not everyone being around for any number of reasons, and there's no deeper explanation. Brian was working on his solo album and Roger was making albums and touring with The Cross, so sessions for tracks like Don't Try So Hard or Delilah could easily have had only two or three members present. Same deal for the title track. Deacon had kids and wasn't always doing band stuff - especially with the sessions being in Switzerland and his family being in London, this may have presented some logistical challenges. That said, for a band who had traditionally done bed tracks of guitar/bass/drums playing live - not to mention how it was said this song grew out of a jam with all four members - it'd still be more than a bit peculiar if it wasn't Deacon on the take used for the album.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Jul 18, 2021 11:27:27 GMT
Indeed, this began as a Freddie solo track in 1987, but who knows if any of this guy's parts are on the final version.
But on second thought, I'm inclined to say no - plenty of other vocals and instruments were credited to others on Queen songs in the past, so I can't see why an exception would be made for a bass part.
Check my external performers thread. The majority of external players involved on Queen tracks were uncredited. Excellent thread, for those who haven't seen it:
I moved it to the singles/albums section and made it a sticky.
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