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Post by The Real Wizard on Aug 28, 2024 6:53:01 GMT
I found it very informative, obviously somewhat biased, but very insightful. The only bias I saw was in the farmer who initially dismissed Brian merely on the grounds that he's a "rock star," as if one's profession automatically disqualifies them from being able to become educated about something in another field. But as soon as he was asked how badgers might've gotten TB (we had learned that it's actually from the cows), he had no answer. He couldn't, because he hadn't run the experiments. But the people Brian was working with had done so. The science and observations are clear - the government sanctioned skin test is ineffective, and bulls are infecting the cows, who then infect one another through their feces. It's ultimately a hygiene issue, and they solved the problem on one particular farm, and not a single badger was harmed. And they found that the only cows that became infected with TB were the ones that *weren't* in contact with wildlife. The official explanation of "badgers are infecting cows" is literally the opposite of what's actually happening. This documentary shows Brian as the compassionate and magnanimous person he is, trying to reach people who disagree with him and find common ground, because they all ultimately have the same goal - to eradicate the TB. His type is a dying breed in these divisive times we live in. This, combined with his scientific side, that razor sharp penchant for evidenced-based thinking, is already making a difference. He's been at this for over a decade, and it's finally headed in the right direction. He is such a good man, and I hope he sleeps well at night.
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Post by David Jones on Aug 28, 2024 12:42:58 GMT
I found it very informative, obviously somewhat biased, but very insightful. The only bias I saw was in the farmer who initially dismissed Brian merely on the grounds that he's a "rock star," as if one's profession automatically disqualifies them from being able to become educated about something in another field. But as soon as he was asked how badgers might've gotten TB (we had learned that it's actually from the cows), he had no answer. He couldn't, because he hadn't run the experiments. But the people Brian was working with had done so. Gareth Wyn Jones, bit of a controversial character on social media. I rolled my eyes when his face appeared.
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Aug 28, 2024 12:56:27 GMT
One thing I didn't notice being mentioned was the funding for all the additional testing. Surely that must come at a cost, and presumably some farmers would struggle to find the financial resources to implement these extra measures.
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Post by David Jones on Aug 28, 2024 13:32:18 GMT
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Post by The Real Wizard on Aug 28, 2024 15:07:24 GMT
What a disingenuous hit piece. This is what Brian has been up against, and I can only imagine how infuriating it must be for him to be portrayed as anti-farmer and not caring about cows when that is so obviously not the case. Nobody is arguing that badgers absolutely cannot infect cows with TB - but that's not the point. We do know that culling badgers for a decade did not make one iota of difference in how many cows had TB. They eliminated TB on the one farm by changing the hygienic procedures so that cows couldn't infect one another, which is by far the bigger problem. What they need to do is try to replicate that study as many times as possible, and then more farmers will be able to save their herds, and word will spread. I just came across this on my Google travels: "Badgers can act as a wildlife reservoir for Mycobacterium bovis, the bacterium which causes tuberculosis (TB) in cattle." This is on the official UK TB site. It's absolutely nuts - there is no evidence for this claim, and it's being preached as if it's gospel. It is completely backwards. It should read: "Cattle can act as a reservoir for Mycobacterium bovis, the bacterium which causes tuberculosis (TB) in other cattle through their feces, which can spread through the ecosystem and eventually be transmitted to protected species such as badgers." Honest question - why are the right wingers scapegoating the badgers when there is no evidence that they are the actual problem ? Is there some kind of financial interest ? Is it just pandering for votes because it became a popular view with their constituents (particularly the Countryside Alliance types) ?
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Post by The Real Wizard on Aug 28, 2024 15:31:06 GMT
One thing I didn't notice being mentioned was the funding for all the additional testing. Surely that must come at a cost, and presumably some farmers would struggle to find the financial resources to implement these extra measures. In a perfect world, the new government will recognize this evidence and cough up the cash. If they actually want to solve this problem, this is by far the most important thing they can do. But as we know, government can be slow - it took them a year to sort out the loophole that had made it illegal for the one scientist to do his job. Let's hope sanity prevails.
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Aug 28, 2024 16:34:03 GMT
I guess it's cheaper to cull badgers than it would be to implement a more rigorous testing and hygiene routine.
As for Brian's film being biased, well, of course it was a bit, as he wanted to get his point and evidence across. There's nothing stopping the farmers approaching the BBC to produce an evidential counter argument.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Aug 28, 2024 16:47:53 GMT
I guess it's cheaper to cull badgers than it would be to implement a more rigorous testing and hygiene routine. If that's their reasoning, then they should just do literally nothing, because they will save the money and there will be no less bovine TB than there is now. We already know that the badger population has little to nothing to do with the cows contracting TB - they're getting it from other cows and bulls without having any contact with wildlife. As for Brian's film being biased, well, of course it was a bit, as he wanted to get his point and evidence across. There's nothing stopping the farmers approaching the BBC to produce a counter argument. How is that biased ? They presented the results of years of rigorous experiments that unquestionably prove that the currently accepted status quo is completely backwards. Science only appears "biased" when some interest group sees its findings as somehow inconvenient. And at this point (and the documentary even touches on this), even getting people to admit they have been wrong all these years is a massive step, because most people are unable to do that even to themselves, never mind in public. The only counter-argument is "we believe, without a shred of evidence, that badgers are infecting cows." They've had over a decade to prove that to be true, and have not been able to because the argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. There is still a very long way to go here. But there is more than a shred of hope now.
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Aug 28, 2024 16:58:25 GMT
I guess it's cheaper to cull badgers than it would be to implement a more rigorous testing and hygiene routine. If that's their reasoning, then they should just do literally nothing, because they will save the money and there will be no less bovine TB than there is now. I'm not saying it's their reasoning, but cost has to be a factor. As for Brian's film being biased, well, of course it was a bit, as he wanted to get his point and evidence across. There's nothing stopping the farmers approaching the BBC to produce a counter argument. How is that biased ? They presented the results of years of rigorous experiments that unquestionably prove that the currently accepted status quo is completely backwards. Science only appears "biased" when some interest group sees its findings as somehow inconvenient. And at this point (and the documentary even touches on this), even getting people to admit they have been wrong all these years is a massive step, because most people are unable to do that even to themselves, never mind in public. The only counter-argument is "we believe, without a shred of evidence, that badgers are infecting cows." They've had over a decade to prove that to be true, and have not been able to because the argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. There is still a very long way to go here. But there is more than a shred of hope now. I'm with you Bob, and I support what Brian is saying. But there's always two sides to an argument.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Aug 28, 2024 17:16:52 GMT
If that's their reasoning, then they should just do literally nothing, because they will save the money and there will be no less bovine TB than there is now. I'm not saying it's their reasoning, but cost has to be a factor. Indeed, as always. But they've got their eyes on the wrong target. If they're interested in saving money, then their first line of reasoning should be "let's stop spending money on the badger cull, because the evidence says it's not decreasing TB in cows." But good luck getting politicians to bend to logic when they have biases to overcome and constituents to appease. How is that biased ? They presented the results of years of rigorous experiments that unquestionably prove that the currently accepted status quo is completely backwards. Science only appears "biased" when some interest group sees its findings as somehow inconvenient. And at this point (and the documentary even touches on this), even getting people to admit they have been wrong all these years is a massive step, because most people are unable to do that even to themselves, never mind in public. The only counter-argument is "we believe, without a shred of evidence, that badgers are infecting cows." They've had over a decade to prove that to be true, and have not been able to because the argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. There is still a very long way to go here. But there is more than a shred of hope now. I'm with you Bob, and I support what Brian is saying. But there's always two sides to an argument. Of course. But until they spend years running experiments like Brian's team has or at least thoroughly sift through the newly-found evidence beyond what was in the documentary with an open mind, then they won't soon be able to produce any valid counterargument against it apart from political talking points. One right winger in the Welsh government so far came up with this: “The reservoir of the disease is within livestock and wildlife. Failure to tackle one without the other will always lead to increased risk of reinfection.” This is mighty fascinating. He's partially correct, but still being disingenuous, not least because he still refers to Brian as "dangerously incorrect," which is just a knee-jerk reaction and does not coalesce with his concession that livestock themselves are part of the problem, which is him admitting Brian is correct, because he didn't know this a week ago. So political bluster aside, this is a mighty step forward from the default "let's kill all the badgers, full stop" position. In politics, this is as close as we'll see to someone admitting they were wrong with only a few days to process new evidence against their thinking. It finally looks like we're turning a corner now. The solution is to get cows tested beyond the only 50% effective skin test and implement better hygiene on farms. If cows that do not come into any contact with wildlife are still getting TB, then the badgers are all but irrelevant in the solution. Sure, vaccinate the badgers, as that surely can't hurt, but until proven otherwise, the problem is squarely in the farms themselves.
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Aug 30, 2024 19:14:40 GMT
Badger culling will end in England within five years as part of a shift in the fight against bovine tuberculosis, the government said on Friday. As part of the new TB eradication strategy, badgers will be vaccinated instead of killed and work to develop a separate vaccine for livestock will also be stepped up. www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9qg52r7jzxo
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vh
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Post by vh on Aug 30, 2024 20:35:42 GMT
Five years is a long time and gives farming organisations time to try and overturn this move.
The national farmers union are still claiming that the cull has reduced TB in cattle.
Another point worth remembering is that the development of vaccines for both cattle and badgers appears fairly central to this, so the coatings/expense of this could, in the long run, work against it.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Aug 31, 2024 0:59:18 GMT
Five years is a long time and gives farming organisations time to try and overturn this move. The national farmers union are still claiming that the cull has reduced TB in cattle. Gross. With absolutely no evidence. Is there much overlap between the farmers union and the countryside alliance ? This decision comes barely a week after the documentary aired ! I wonder if it had any affect on the government's decision ? It notably says *within* five years - that may well mean it could be less than that.
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vh
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Post by vh on Aug 31, 2024 8:10:41 GMT
Five years is a long time and gives farming organisations time to try and overturn this move. The national farmers union are still claiming that the cull has reduced TB in cattle. Gross. With absolutely no evidence. Is there much overlap between the farmers union and the countryside alliance ? This decision comes barely a week after the documentary aired ! I wonder if it had any affect on the government's decision ? It notably says *within* five years - that may well mean it could be less than that. I’m sure there will be some overlap of membership but to what extent I’m not sure. I believe the current Badger cull licences run out in two years, that potentially still a huge number of Badgers still to be targeted. Have a look at Brian’s site he’s posted about the government stance and the coincidence of this announcement.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Aug 31, 2024 14:09:29 GMT
Gross. With absolutely no evidence. Is there much overlap between the farmers union and the countryside alliance ? This decision comes barely a week after the documentary aired ! I wonder if it had any affect on the government's decision ? It notably says *within* five years - that may well mean it could be less than that. I’m sure there will be some overlap of membership but to what extent I’m not sure. I believe the current Badger cull licences run out in two years, that potentially still a huge number of Badgers still to be targeted. Have a look at Brian’s site he’s posted about the government stance and the coincidence of this announcement. He says it was the same day - some coincidence indeed ! brianmay.com/brians-soapbox/2024/08/amazing-news-will-save-the-lives-of-some-badgers
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rogercz
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Post by rogercz on Sept 4, 2024 8:51:01 GMT
Brian talked about the documentary on his IG account today and also about health problems, that he faced during last week. He mentioned minor stroke, that paralysed his lef hand, he even couldn't play the guitar. Hopefully he's doing better now.
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