Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Dec 22, 2020 17:27:15 GMT
More old movies could have warnings added about racism and stereotypes, after UK film censors said Ming the Merciless in 1980's Flash Gordon was "dubious if not outright offensive".The British Board of Film Classification (BBFC) added a warning about "discriminatory stereotypes" for the film's recent re-release. Ming was of East Asian appearance and was played by Sweden's Max Von Sydow. www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55409194
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pg
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Post by pg on Dec 22, 2020 19:48:17 GMT
Dambusters, Gone With The Wind also problematic in this century.
Al Johnson fully cancelled, no chance of ever seeing Disney's "Song Of The South", we're lucky Oliver Army still gets played on the radio...
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Dec 22, 2020 19:50:55 GMT
Oliver's Army has been censored on UK radio. He now repeats the "Call careers information..." line where the "offending" line would have been.
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Jakelic
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Post by Jakelic on Dec 23, 2020 0:45:54 GMT
He was not of East Asian appearance. He was of alien appearance.
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Post by ThomasQuinn on Dec 23, 2020 10:11:03 GMT
Dambusters, Gone With The Wind also problematic in this century. Al Johnson fully cancelled, no chance of ever seeing Disney's "Song Of The South", we're lucky Oliver Army still gets played on the radio... Gone With The Wind was *always* problematic. From a purely artistic perspective it's flawed (bad character development, haphazard plot, some TERRIBLE acting), from a historical perspective it's simply terrible - the book was an unmitigated propaganda piece based almost exclusively on Henry Benning's re-interpretation of the old South and the Civil War (Henry Benning was an extremist even by the standards of Confederate lost-cause adherents), and is responsible for three full generations of Americans having a perverse a-historical view of the Civil War. All these criticisms have been voiced since the day it was released.
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Post by ThomasQuinn on Dec 23, 2020 10:11:38 GMT
He was not of East Asian appearance. He was of alien appearance. His look was based on old Fu Manchu films. So yeah, he was meant to be of East Asian appearance. |
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Jakelic
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Post by Jakelic on Dec 23, 2020 13:34:03 GMT
He was not of East Asian appearance. He was of alien appearance. His look was based on old Fu Manchu films. So yeah, he was meant to be of East Asian appearance. I think it's all in the eye of the beholder. I always saw Ming as an alien overlord with genetics not of this earth. If we go down the alley of overanalysing what is each character based on and what he wears, it's a deep hole to fall down. What about prince Thun for example, is he a discriminatory stereotype? I'm sure we can find much more similar examples in this, and for that matter, any other movie. But once we start looking at things that way, well, we can ban / put warnings on just about 90% of art. |
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emrabt
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Post by emrabt on Dec 23, 2020 13:50:18 GMT
Oh no, my 1980 movie based on a 1930's comic doesn't fit with the current ideal of what is deemed correct, I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED I TELL YOU!
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BrƎИsꓘi
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They called it paradise, I don't know why...You call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye.
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Dec 23, 2020 14:20:15 GMT
Oh no, my 1980 movie based on a 1930's comic doesn't fit with the current ideal of what is deemed correct, I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED I TELL YOU! the simple fact of the matter is that people will still watch and appreciate those old films (some currently almost 100 years old) - all of them - for hundreds of years to come, because (regardless of political agenda or leanings of the writers and directors) a good film will always be good. this last decade+ of enlightened political correctness, "awareness" and virtue-signalling is absolutely killing art - in all of its forms. this need to instruct the viewer/listener/reader of what is acceptable for our eyes and ears, and condemnation of something brilliant "just because", is appalling. FFS - the viewer/listener/reader is being nannied out of any free will/thought - it's shameful and insulting. how many of the new millennium's movies will be watched in 50 years time? probably none, because once something is created within a predetermined approved code, then the artform itself suffers at the hands of the self-appointed morale guardians. Art for art's sake please, and this awareness nonsense - be gone! |
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georg
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Post by georg on Dec 23, 2020 15:30:26 GMT
If it's that offensive, slap a message on the front of subsequent releases explaining it was made in a different time and sensitivities have changed and so forth, bob's yer uncle. Warner Bros. have been doing it for years with their Looney Tunes re-releases, and Disney+ started doing it on their older cartoons.
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Steve
Wordles & Heardles
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Post by Steve on Dec 23, 2020 20:19:59 GMT
Oh no, my 1980 movie based on a 1930's comic doesn't fit with the current ideal of what is deemed correct, I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED I TELL YOU! the simple fact of the matter is that people will still watch and appreciate those old films (some currently almost 100 years old) - all of them - for hundreds of years to come, because (regardless of political agenda or leanings of the writers and directors) a good film will always be good. this last decade+ of enlightened political correctness, "awareness" and virtue-signalling is absolutely killing art - in all of its forms. this need to instruct the viewer/listener/reader of what is acceptable for our eyes and ears, and condemnation of something brilliant "just because", is appalling. FFS - the viewer/listener/reader is being nannied out of any free will/thought - it's shameful and insulting. how many of the new millennium's movies will be watched in 50 years time? probably none, because once something is created within a predetermined approved code, then the artform itself suffers at the hands of the self-appointed morale guardians. Art for art's sake please, and this awareness nonsense - be gone! Well said mate. |
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BrƎИsꓘi
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They called it paradise, I don't know why...You call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye.
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Dec 24, 2020 7:27:58 GMT
we're lucky Oliver Army still gets played on the radio... ...and always will be. because songs, movies etc are allowed to criticize any perceived wrongdoing(s). and while we're on this, who knew (back in 1976) how prophetic this would be: And the meek shall inherit the earth.
We’ve taken care of everything
The words you read, The songs you sing
The pictures that give pleasure to your eye
Yes, we know, It’s nothing new. It’s just a waste of time
We have no need for ancient ways, our world is doing fine
Another toy, that helped destroy, the elder race of man
Forget about your silly whim, it doesn’t fit the plan
I see the works of gifted hands, grace this strange and wondrous land
I see the hand of man arise, with hungry mind and open eyes |
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Dec 24, 2020 11:31:08 GMT
If it's that offensive, slap a message on the front of subsequent releases explaining it was made in a different time and sensitivities have changed and so forth, bob's yer uncle. Warner Bros. have been doing it for years with their Looney Tunes re-releases, and Disney+ started doing it on their older cartoons. Agreed. I don't think this criticism should ruin the film for anyone new coming to it. In hindsight, yes, I think it was insensitive, but it happened. And honestly, in all these years I never really thought Ming looked particularly Asian. I guess I always just thought he was really into wearing heavy make up -- particularly eyeliner. A very effeminate and charismatic looking villain. |
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Post by waywardgenius on Dec 24, 2020 14:12:34 GMT
As Steve Hughes said: "How do you make a law about offending people? How do you make it an offence to offend people? Being offended is subjective. It has everything to do with you as an individual or a collective or a group or a society or a community. Your moral conditioning, your religious beliefs. What offends me may not offend you. And you want to make laws about this? I’m offended when I see boy bands, for God's sake.
"It’s a valid offence, I’m offended. They’re corporate shills, posing as musicians to further a modelling career, and frankly - I’m disgusted."
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Jakelic
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Post by Jakelic on Dec 24, 2020 16:47:51 GMT
One more question hangs in the air... why would it be offensive to any nation/nationality/culture if the villan is portrayed in their likeness of appearance? Take for example Guy Ritchie's 2000. movie Snatch. You have a Croatian legendary actor Rade Serbedzija appearing as agent Boris the Blade. Should we put a ban/warning on Snatch for being offensive to Russian people, portraying them as KGB villain stereotypes?
Being from Croatia myself, If I see a Croatian villain or Croatian-looking stereotype (whatever that might be) in a movie, I'd probably laugh my ass off and enjoy it. Definitely wouldn't get offended if a cosmic emperor looked Croatian.
Following the same logic, why not proclaim all the movie roles that have caucasian-looking villains as 'offensive bad stereotypes for caucasian people' and see how many works of art that tips off the list.
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Dec 24, 2020 16:59:21 GMT
I think it's a blurry line we tread. Certain things, however, are common sense...aka human decency. I don't really have a problem with a lot of the recent outcries because, at the very least, they shed light for folk who don't know any better. With that said, of course, sometimes things are taken a step too far in terms of censorship.
Regarding Ming the Merciless, I think the criticism is less to do with portraying an eastern Asian man as the villain, and more to do with a Caucasian man portraying an eastern Asian man as the villain.
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Jakelic
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Post by Jakelic on Dec 24, 2020 17:44:17 GMT
I think it's a blurry line we tread. Certain things, however, are common sense...aka human decency. I don't really have a problem with a lot of the recent outcries because, at the very least, they shed light for folk who don't know any better. With that said, of course, sometimes things are taken a step too far in terms of censorship. Regarding Ming the Merciless, I think the criticism is less to do with portraying an eastern Asian man as the villain, and more to do with a Caucasian man portraying an eastern Asian man as the villain. are you're saying that if eastern Asian actor was hired instead of Max, the role would not be considered offensive? |
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Post by saintjiub on Dec 24, 2020 18:21:42 GMT
I think it's a blurry line we tread. Certain things, however, are common sense...aka human decency. I don't really have a problem with a lot of the recent outcries because, at the very least, they shed light for folk who don't know any better. With that said, of course, sometimes things are taken a step too far in terms of censorship. Regarding Ming the Merciless, I think the criticism is less to do with portraying an eastern Asian man as the villain, and more to do with a Caucasian man portraying an eastern Asian man as the villain. I'm offended by the cultural appropriation "theft". |
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Dec 24, 2020 18:27:54 GMT
I think it's a blurry line we tread. Certain things, however, are common sense...aka human decency. I don't really have a problem with a lot of the recent outcries because, at the very least, they shed light for folk who don't know any better. With that said, of course, sometimes things are taken a step too far in terms of censorship. Regarding Ming the Merciless, I think the criticism is less to do with portraying an eastern Asian man as the villain, and more to do with a Caucasian man portraying an eastern Asian man as the villain. are you're saying that if eastern Asian actor was hired instead of Max, the role would not be considered offensive? I don't think that would be as offensive. Basically, Max was a caricature. Why not hire an Asian person if the character was supposed to look Asian (not hip to all the back history of Flash Gordon). Of course, none of this takes anything away from the performance. He was brilliant. |
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Jakelic
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Post by Jakelic on Dec 26, 2020 0:35:30 GMT
are you're saying that if eastern Asian actor was hired instead of Max, the role would not be considered offensive? I don't think that would be as offensive. Basically, Max was a caricature. Why not hire an Asian person if the character was supposed to look Asian (not hip to all the back history of Flash Gordon). Of course, none of this takes anything away from the performance. He was brilliant. While I respect that opininon, I disagree. No need to hire an Asian actor for the role of the Space emperor. Even if the role was planned to look as an Asian character, no need to hire exclusively Asian actors for the role. Folowing that logic, performances like Cate Blanchett's role as Bob Dylan would be offensive. Also I disagree he was a caricature, if you compare Max in this role to the comic book character he was based on, I'd say he was spot on. Also Ming The Merciless was cast in the same manner many times before, like Charles Middleton or Vic Perring in the old black and white versions of Flash. |
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Dec 26, 2020 13:26:10 GMT
I don't think that would be as offensive. Basically, Max was a caricature. Why not hire an Asian person if the character was supposed to look Asian (not hip to all the back history of Flash Gordon). Of course, none of this takes anything away from the performance. He was brilliant. While I respect that opininon, I disagree. No need to hire an Asian actor for the role of the Space emperor. Even if the role was planned to look as an Asian character, no need to hire exclusively Asian actors for the role. Folowing that logic, performances like Cate Blanchett's role as Bob Dylan would be offensive. Also I disagree he was a caricature, if you compare Max in this role to the comic book character he was based on, I'd say he was spot on. Also Ming The Merciless was cast in the same manner many times before, like Charles Middleton or Vic Perring in the old black and white versions of Flash. Yes, perhaps the word caricature was too strong a word. Again, nothing takes away from his performance. And just to be clear, I don't believe Max Von Sydow or any of the film makers had any intentions of offending anyone, nor the previous portrayals. But hindsight can be a real bitch. Unfair even, such as in this case. I don't think you can equate Cate Blanchett's role as Bob Dylan to this however. As the saying goes, that's like comparing oranges and apples. Just as an example, in the 1940s Japanese Americans were forcibly removed from their homes and placed in camps out of fear that they would show sympathy with the enemy invaders. This hurt so many innocent people and tensions were at an all time high. This is why I can understand and appreciate the criticism of having a Caucasian man play a villain with Eastern Asian physical characterization. I can understand why a family who went through that sort of hell might find it in poor taste, and even offensive, even if it hasn't come to light until now. I think it's important that we recognize such instances so that we can be more mindful in the future. |
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Jakelic
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Post by Jakelic on Dec 26, 2020 13:56:09 GMT
While I respect that opininon, I disagree. No need to hire an Asian actor for the role of the Space emperor. Even if the role was planned to look as an Asian character, no need to hire exclusively Asian actors for the role. Folowing that logic, performances like Cate Blanchett's role as Bob Dylan would be offensive. Also I disagree he was a caricature, if you compare Max in this role to the comic book character he was based on, I'd say he was spot on. Also Ming The Merciless was cast in the same manner many times before, like Charles Middleton or Vic Perring in the old black and white versions of Flash. Yes, perhaps the word caricature was too strong a word. Again, nothing takes away from his performance. And just to be clear, I don't believe Max Von Sydow or any of the film makers had any intentions of offending anyone, nor the previous portrayals. But hindsight can be a real bitch. Unfair even, such as in this case. I don't think you can equate Cate Blanchett's role as Bob Dylan to this however. As the saying goes, that's like comparing oranges and apples. Just as an example, in the 1940s Japanese Americans were forcibly removed from their homes and placed in camps out of fear that they would show sympathy with the enemy invaders. This hurt so many innocent people and tensions were at an all time high. This is why I can understand and appreciate the criticism of having a Caucasian man play a villain with Eastern Asian physical characterization. I can understand why a family who went through that sort of hell might find it in poor taste, and even offensive, even if it hasn't come to light until now. I think it's important that we recognize such instances so that we can be more mindful in the future. Coudn't disagree more, and find the analogy with a Japanese opressed family completely unrelateable to the Sydow role in this movie and flagging it as potentially offensive or a negative steroptype. Still don't see it. It is a very true rendition of the original space alien character from the comic book. Nothing offensive in a great actor doing a performance in a fantasy movie, caucasian, asian or otherwise. But I do appreciate the different opinion and a respectful conversation on the topic. Art finds it's meaning in the eye of the beholder, you can choose to see it any way you like. |
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BrƎИsꓘi
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They called it paradise, I don't know why...You call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye.
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Dec 26, 2020 14:45:56 GMT
are you're saying that if eastern Asian actor was hired instead of Max, the role would not be considered offensive? I don't think that would be as offensive. Basically, Max was a caricature. Why not hire an Asian person if the character was supposed to look Asian (not hip to all the back history of Flash Gordon). Of course, none of this takes anything away from the performance. He was brilliant. strange how the mortally-offended watchdogs aren't bleating the same offence to the pale, blond, Scandinavian Max's portrayal of the dark-haired, dark(ish)-skinned, Jewish Jesus Christ. yep, strange that. |
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Dec 26, 2020 15:01:42 GMT
Yes, perhaps the word caricature was too strong a word. Again, nothing takes away from his performance. And just to be clear, I don't believe Max Von Sydow or any of the film makers had any intentions of offending anyone, nor the previous portrayals. But hindsight can be a real bitch. Unfair even, such as in this case. I don't think you can equate Cate Blanchett's role as Bob Dylan to this however. As the saying goes, that's like comparing oranges and apples. Just as an example, in the 1940s Japanese Americans were forcibly removed from their homes and placed in camps out of fear that they would show sympathy with the enemy invaders. This hurt so many innocent people and tensions were at an all time high. This is why I can understand and appreciate the criticism of having a Caucasian man play a villain with Eastern Asian physical characterization. I can understand why a family who went through that sort of hell might find it in poor taste, and even offensive, even if it hasn't come to light until now. I think it's important that we recognize such instances so that we can be more mindful in the future. Coudn't disagree more, and find the analogy with a Japanese opressed family completely unrelateable to the Sydow role in this movie and flagging it as potentially offensive or a negative steroptype. Still don't see it. It is a very true rendition of the original space alien character from the comic book. Nothing offensive in a great actor doing a performance in a fantasy movie, caucasian, asian or otherwise. But I do appreciate the different opinion and a respectful conversation on the topic. Art finds it's meaning in the eye of the beholder, you can choose to see it any way you like. I appreciate the respectful conversation as well. Happy Holidays to you and your family. |
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Jakelic
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Post by Jakelic on Dec 26, 2020 19:17:11 GMT
Coudn't disagree more, and find the analogy with a Japanese opressed family completely unrelateable to the Sydow role in this movie and flagging it as potentially offensive or a negative steroptype. Still don't see it. It is a very true rendition of the original space alien character from the comic book. Nothing offensive in a great actor doing a performance in a fantasy movie, caucasian, asian or otherwise. But I do appreciate the different opinion and a respectful conversation on the topic. Art finds it's meaning in the eye of the beholder, you can choose to see it any way you like. I appreciate the respectful conversation as well. Happy Holidays to you and your family. Same to you my friend. All the best! |
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Post by stevendabudgie on Dec 26, 2020 21:31:21 GMT
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