Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Jun 1, 2021 16:49:03 GMT
I get what you're saying, and technically, yes, Innuendo was the last complete album they all worked on together in a studio at the same time, but I don't think you will win an argument that MIH isn't a bona fide Queen album. It was just recorded differently to the preceding ones, and they were all present as a band for some of the recordings. As we know, Brian wasn't present for much of the initial recording of the Sheer Heart Attack album, but added his guitar parts after coming out of hospital. Does that make SHA any less of a Queen album? Yeah, I get it now. I listened back to it, and took your arguments into account, and I can say that it's a true, and pretty good, Queen album! Hoorah! 😁 |
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Sammy B. Willickers
Ploughman
"Blow it out your asshole!" - Freddie Mercury, 1985
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Post by Sammy B. Willickers on Jun 1, 2021 16:50:55 GMT
I understand what ya mean, and yes, it's a very good one! Personally though, I just think Innuendo is their last album as Queen, y'know, with all 4 members This argument continues to make no sense, as all four members of Queen are on every track of Made In Heaven.
Forgive me if I sound antagonistic, but you're really digging a hole here based on some sort of unfounded ideology that the album is less of an album because one of the band members died before it could be finished. You insist you don't want to go into the history of who wrote what and when, but the reality is it's no less a Queen album than any of the others purely on the fact that a) Freddie wrote more songs on it than many previous Queen albums, and b) he sings on every track.
There are entire songs on their first seven albums that he did not at all contribute to. Maybe those shouldn't be classified as Queen albums then?
What is your definition of a Queen album ? Is it in line with what the rest of the world would call a Queen album ?
You describe Made In Heaven as "a collection of unused songs (and, granted, songs written with the sole intention of being released after his death and they were fixed up)." Not only is that inaccurate as that doesn't describe all of the tracks, but going by your definition that should validate its status as a Queen album like any other because those particular tracks were created with the sole intention of being finished and released - unlike Coda, which you initially compared it to. The only thing those two albums have in common is that they were released after a band member died, but that's where the comparisons end.
Yeah, I get what you're saying, and don't worry, You're not being antagonistic, I was just not really using my brain and really thinking about it. You're right and I probably should've thought about it a little more when I posted it |
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emrabt
Wordles & Heardles 
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Post by emrabt on Jun 1, 2021 17:31:22 GMT
Anyway your original point still holds up, as May was Freddies last known vocal too.
Made In Heaven works really well all things considered, it could very well be the album with the most consistent sound and theme.
I don't know if it was accidental but it kind of starts in summer and ends in winter too.
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georg
Global Moderator
wrote several books
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Post by georg on Jun 1, 2021 17:43:47 GMT
This argument continues to make no sense, as all four members of Queen are on every track of Made In Heaven.
Forgive me if I sound antagonistic, but you're really digging a hole here based on some sort of unfounded ideology that the album is less of an album because one of the band members died before it could be finished. You insist you don't want to go into the history of who wrote what and when, but the reality is it's no less a Queen album than any of the others purely on the fact that a) Freddie wrote more songs on it than many previous Queen albums, and b) he sings on every track.
There are entire songs on their first seven albums that he did not at all contribute to. Maybe those shouldn't be classified as Queen albums then?
What is your definition of a Queen album ? Is it in line with what the rest of the world would call a Queen album ?
You describe Made In Heaven as "a collection of unused songs (and, granted, songs written with the sole intention of being released after his death and they were fixed up)." Not only is that inaccurate as that doesn't describe all of the tracks, but going by your definition that should validate its status as a Queen album like any other because those particular tracks were created with the sole intention of being finished and released - unlike Coda, which you initially compared it to. The only thing those two albums have in common is that they were released after a band member died, but that's where the comparisons end.
Yeah, I get what you're saying, and don't worry, You're not being antagonistic, I was just not really using my brain and really thinking about it. You're right and I probably should've thought about it a little more when I posted it Just wanted to chime in unsolicited and say that I knew what you were going for, but I could also see Real Wizard’s passionate point. All the same, glad you were able to listen to it with different ears! |
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Sammy B. Willickers
Ploughman
"Blow it out your asshole!" - Freddie Mercury, 1985
Posts: 330
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Post by Sammy B. Willickers on Jun 1, 2021 18:10:04 GMT
Yeah, I get what you're saying, and don't worry, You're not being antagonistic, I was just not really using my brain and really thinking about it. You're right and I probably should've thought about it a little more when I posted it Just wanted to chime in unsolicited and say that I knew what you were going for, but I could also see Real Wizard’s passionate point. All the same, glad you were able to listen to it with different ears! Thank you! and I understand, so don't worry  |
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Post by The Real Wizard on Jun 1, 2021 20:58:22 GMT
This argument continues to make no sense, as all four members of Queen are on every track of Made In Heaven.
Forgive me if I sound antagonistic, but you're really digging a hole here based on some sort of unfounded ideology that the album is less of an album because one of the band members died before it could be finished. You insist you don't want to go into the history of who wrote what and when, but the reality is it's no less a Queen album than any of the others purely on the fact that a) Freddie wrote more songs on it than many previous Queen albums, and b) he sings on every track.
There are entire songs on their first seven albums that he did not at all contribute to. Maybe those shouldn't be classified as Queen albums then?
What is your definition of a Queen album ? Is it in line with what the rest of the world would call a Queen album ?
You describe Made In Heaven as "a collection of unused songs (and, granted, songs written with the sole intention of being released after his death and they were fixed up)." Not only is that inaccurate as that doesn't describe all of the tracks, but going by your definition that should validate its status as a Queen album like any other because those particular tracks were created with the sole intention of being finished and released - unlike Coda, which you initially compared it to. The only thing those two albums have in common is that they were released after a band member died, but that's where the comparisons end.
Yeah, I get what you're saying, and don't worry, You're not being antagonistic, I was just not really using my brain and really thinking about it. You're right and I probably should've thought about it a little more when I posted it Wow, a teachable moment on the internet ! Hell has frozen over - rejoice !
Thanks for being open to the dialogue. Changing one's mind is one of the most gratifying things we can do in life.
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dave76
Dragonfly Trumpeter
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Post by dave76 on Jun 1, 2021 21:09:18 GMT
Freddie would say "it's only a bloody album. People get so excited about these things" lol. I agree with everyone here. Made In Heaven is a very good Queen album and according to Brian it was the right album to finish off with.
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n39
Ploughman
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Post by n39 on Jun 1, 2021 21:09:39 GMT
Shame Seb never opened up to the idea of changing one's mind!  |
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Post by The Real Wizard on Jun 1, 2021 21:15:25 GMT
Rome wasn't built in a day.
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n39
Ploughman
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Post by n39 on Jun 1, 2021 21:16:52 GMT
Rome wasn't built in a day. Neither was Bogotá |
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emrabt
Wordles & Heardles
Politician
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Post by emrabt on Jun 2, 2021 7:39:21 GMT
Shame Seb never opened up to the idea of changing one's mind! Sebastian's quirk for always using legal names was absolutely harmless, there are far worse things for people to get hung up on. |
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nico
Satyr
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Post by nico on Jun 3, 2021 21:00:46 GMT
Shame Seb never opened up to the idea of changing one's mind! Sebastian's quirk for always using legal names was absolutely harmless, there are far worse things for people to get hung up on. What happened with Sebastian ? I guess I missed that. |
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Post by The Real Wizard on Jun 3, 2021 22:42:58 GMT
Sebastian's quirk for always using legal names was absolutely harmless, there are far worse things for people to get hung up on. What happened with Sebastian ? I guess I missed that. He headed for the exits voluntarily. |
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pg
Queen Mab
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Post by pg on Jun 4, 2021 6:06:29 GMT
What happened with Sebastian ? I guess I missed that. He headed for the exits voluntarily. That's a shame. Did he give a reason? |
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Post by The Real Wizard on Jun 4, 2021 9:29:47 GMT
He headed for the exits voluntarily. That's a shame. Did he give a reason? He basically said his objective was to complete the "In Their Own Words" series, and his work here was done.
And of course it's ultimately down to the naming issue. He legitimately doesn't seem to understand why people see his usage of "Frederick" instead of "Freddie" as a bit off-putting, and insists it's fine on the grounds that it's nowhere near as bad as misgendering someone or using derogatory terms for their weight, height, or ethnicity. So he thought he'd just remove himself from the situation so as to avoid further conflict.
A shame indeed, as his work is invaluable. |
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nico
Satyr
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Post by nico on Jun 4, 2021 9:47:26 GMT
That's a shame. Did he give a reason? He basically said his objective was to complete the "In Their Own Words" series, and his work here was done.
And of course it's ultimately down to the naming issue. He legitimately doesn't seem to understand why people take issue with him using "Frederick" instead of "Freddie," and insists it's fine on the grounds that it's nowhere near as bad as misgendering someone or using derogatory terms for their weight, height, or ethnicity. So he thought he'd just remove himself from the situation so as to avoid further conflict.
It IS fine, but ludicrous, and felt like an attention-seeking gimmick. If I remember correctly, calling Freddie "Freddie" never seemed to be a problem for Sebastian on his old "Bechstein Debauchery" website. Why and how did that change ? Odd.
Now, I also think we should think of our own annoyance, because it really isn't such a big deal, and shouldn't be.
Indeed. Sebastian's research on Queen is absolutely fascinating. The level of intellectual rigour is unmatched. I will miss him. |
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Post by The Real Wizard on Jun 4, 2021 9:53:26 GMT
Now, I also think we should think of our own annoyance, because it really isn't such a big deal, and shouldn't be.
And maybe that's what he's ultimately trying to do. A parable, almost like Christ.
I've told him his work is world class, but that he'd never become a published music journalist with such philosophies - and he responds that he couldn't care less because he does his research for his own pleasure and that he seeks no outside validation. The pleasure of anyone else who wants to read is a bonus.
In other words - he's completely comfortable in his own shoes. And we could all learn something from that.
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emrabt
Wordles & Heardles
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Post by emrabt on Jun 4, 2021 10:12:54 GMT
I suspect the fact that people kept complaining about it pushed him further towards using full names.
I probably would do the same in the same situation, however it obviously got to a point where it was seriously getting to him, at which point, if you don't want to change, taking a break is probably best.
We should probably get the thread back on track before it becomes about a person who isn't here to defend themselves.
I've always wondered why the "Queen people" were deliberately vague about when the MIH tracks were recorded, it's not like anyone thinks less of Freddie for retiring to spend a few months with his partner and family.
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Jun 4, 2021 10:29:39 GMT
We should probably get the thread back on track before it becomes about a person who isn't here to defend themselves. Agreed. Time to move on. Seb is perfectly entitled to make his own choices. We are fortunate to still be left with his amazing work. |
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Post by The Real Wizard on Jun 4, 2021 11:45:35 GMT
I've always wondered why the "Queen people" were deliberately vague about when the MIH tracks were recorded, it's not like anyone thinks less of Freddie for retiring to spend a few months with his partner and family. My first instinct is to say it's because the narrative of "he worked right up until the end" is more romantic/heroic than "he stopped working six months before he died."
But it could just as well be a matter of them not remembering dates and times of something that happened 30 years ago. No doubt that period is a blur for them for all the obvious reasons. To them a few months' difference is probably nothing in the grand scheme of things in the best of times, never mind when the world is crashing down on them, so there may well be no intention at all to blur the lines.
They went through the experience, and that's enough for them - they aren't analyzing it like we are. |
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oreno
Ploughman
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Post by oreno on Jun 4, 2021 13:14:13 GMT
I've always wondered why the "Queen people" were deliberately vague about when the MIH tracks were recorded, it's not like anyone thinks less of Freddie for retiring to spend a few months with his partner and family. Because the romantic/heroic narrative of "he worked right up until the end" doesn't exactly coalesce with "he stopped working six months before he died."
But it could just as well be a matter of them not remembering dates and times of something that happened 30 years ago. No doubt that period is a blur for them for all the obvious reasons. To them a few months' difference is probably nothing in the grand scheme of things in the best of times, never mind when the world is crashing down on them.
They went through the experience, and that's enough for them - they aren't analyzing it like we are. I bashed out a rough timeline of 1991 and it's surprising how busy the band were in those 6 months - Roger doing promo and touring with The Cross, Brian doing Queen promo in the US and spending a few weeks on his solo work. Also there's the various family holidays (as reported in the FC mags), and it actually seems there was only a few clear consecutive weeks in July/August when everyone was 'free'.. even as far as we know. The last recording/ filming sessions coincide with Freddie getting heavily papped by the UK press and after that it seems he was much keener on spending his time in Montreux. Perhaps as this was now his own time, it was less likely that he was going to spend it working, assuming the band were even available. And we don't know how ill he was in those last few months. We can't assume that in his good periods he was immediately going to want to head to the studio. I think this easily explains why they didn't get together to write/record again. And we should remember Freddie had no idea how long he had left. |
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akirafish
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Post by akirafish on Jun 4, 2021 14:39:58 GMT
IMO judging from the fact Mother Love was only half-sung by Freddie, also that he almost crippled in the shooting of TATDOOL, probably his condition was too deteriorate to work any more.
I also have a feeling that Delilah (maybe A Winter's Tale too）lacked the rhyme and meter he normally cared. He said he's not good at lyrics. He used to spend long time discussing with someone like Peter Freestone to think out one word that has the right meaning and also sounds right to sing. By then I don't think he had the strength to go through all that. That's my unfounded feeling.
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Post by mattzarella on Feb 14, 2024 1:02:43 GMT
He basically said his objective was to complete the "In Their Own Words" series, and his work here was done.
And of course it's ultimately down to the naming issue. He legitimately doesn't seem to understand why people take issue with him using "Frederick" instead of "Freddie," and insists it's fine on the grounds that it's nowhere near as bad as misgendering someone or using derogatory terms for their weight, height, or ethnicity. So he thought he'd just remove himself from the situation so as to avoid further conflict.
It IS fine, but ludicrous, and felt like an attention-seeking gimmick. If I remember correctly, calling Freddie "Freddie" never seemed to be a problem for Sebastian on his old "Bechstein Debauchery" website. Why and how did that change ? Odd.
Now, I also think we should think of our own annoyance, because it really isn't such a big deal, and shouldn't be.
Indeed. Sebastian's research on Queen is absolutely fascinating. The level of intellectual rigour is unmatched. I will miss him. I'm just finding out about this. Long time QZ guy. Couldn't devote the proper time to this forum so I even joined late. Shame about Sebastian... but at least the search element works well on this site and I found it quite easily. I would have assumed it was due to some sort of Sex-Scandal. |
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