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Post by mrscully on Sept 13, 2024 13:06:44 GMT
And I also have this setlist that I have no idea where it could be from, most likely just a very early rehearsal, possibly June 1970.
Stone Cold Crazy Jesus (Born was the leader of Man) Father To Son Hangman Blues I'm A Man Morning Sun Now That I'm Here Doin' All Right Reason Lover
This must be extremely early, definitely summer 1970, the very beginnings. Possibly a rehearsal. Perhaps a setlist of songs "that could be played live at gigs" compiled by Freddie for the first rehearsals.
The early Hangmans were Hangman Blues, Waiting For The Hangman, Living For The Hangman. It took the band some time before they started playing the real Hangman that we know. At least one of the others was a completely different song.
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Post by funinspace81 on Sept 13, 2024 14:09:51 GMT
23.08.1970 Imperial College, London Stone Cold Crazy Now That I'm Here Father To Son Hangman Doin' Alright Son And Daughters --- See What A Fool I've Been She Makes Me Jesus Please Don't Tease Jailhouse Rock I'm A Man Thanks so much!!
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pg
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Post by pg on Sept 13, 2024 19:50:01 GMT
Wasn't "Now I'm Here" written while Brian was in hospital, making the list a fairly late one, relative to the release of SHA?
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manymilesaway
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Post by manymilesaway on Sept 13, 2024 19:51:46 GMT
23.08.1970 Imperial College, London Stone Cold Crazy Now That I'm Here Father To Son Hangman Doin' Alright Son And Daughter --- See What A Fool I've Been She Makes Me Jesus Please Don't Tease Jailhouse Rock I'm A Man Wow. They didn't play Liar or Lover at Imperial College? That's new to me.
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Post by funinspace81 on Sept 13, 2024 20:03:24 GMT
Wasn't "Now I'm Here" written while Brian was in hospital, making the list a fairly late one, relative to the release of SHA? You are correct about the "Now I'm Here" writing period. However, "Now That I'm Here" should not be confused with it. It's actually the early title of "Feelings Feelings".
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Post by mrscully on Sept 13, 2024 20:23:54 GMT
23.08.1970 Imperial College, London Stone Cold Crazy Now That I'm Here Father To Son Hangman Doin' Alright Son And Daughter --- See What A Fool I've Been She Makes Me Jesus Please Don't Tease Jailhouse Rock I'm A Man Wow. They didn't play Liar or Lover at Imperial College? That's new to me. There was probably a gap between the original Lover and the newly composed Queen version of Liar. Lover take me to your leader I give you body and soul I'm a lover believer Lover calling me back home...
The same counts for Keep Yourself Alive which most likely wasn't among the first songs Queen have ever composed.
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emrabt
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Post by emrabt on Sept 14, 2024 4:53:36 GMT
23.08.1970 Imperial College, London Stone Cold Crazy Now That I'm Here Father To Son Hangman Doin' Alright Son And Daughter --- See What A Fool I've Been She Makes Me Jesus Please Don't Tease Jailhouse Rock I'm A Man This thread is great. Do we know if "I'm a Man" is a cover of the Spencer Davis group song or the 50's rock and roll song, or an original song?
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manymilesaway
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Post by manymilesaway on Sept 14, 2024 6:15:33 GMT
Do we know if "I'm a Man" is a cover of the Spencer Davis group song or the 50's rock and roll song, or an original song? It's a cover. Queen often covered that song, even later into their career when they were stars.
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Post by mrscully on Sept 14, 2024 7:50:01 GMT
Morning Sun is a cover of a 1970 pop hit. Don't Tease Me is a Cliff Richard song from 1960.
The only one we haven't identified yet is "Reason".
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Post by masterstroke on Sept 14, 2024 7:56:29 GMT
Morning Sun is a cover of a 1970 pop hit. Don't Tease Me is a Cliff Richard song from 1960. The only one we haven't identified yet is "Reason". I don't think it could be because of the song Reason to Believe (by American folk singer Tim Hardin in 1965. It has since been recorded by many artists, most notably the Carpenters in 1970 and Rod Stewart in 1971) ....but to say something...
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Dimitris
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Post by Dimitris on Sept 14, 2024 8:11:51 GMT
Wow. They didn't play Liar or Lover at Imperial College? That's new to me. There was probably a gap between the original Lover and the newly composed Queen version of Liar. Lover take me to your leader I give you body and soul I'm a lover believer Lover calling me back home...
The same counts for Keep Yourself Alive which most likely wasn't among the first songs Queen have ever composed. Way back in early 00s there was a site with scnnned music magazines from 70s. There I found an interview from Roger Taylor speaking about the debut album and how they managed to got a record contact. Now the intersting fact, he said that their contract was for 9 albums and they had about 100 ideas for songs. If he was not exaggerated, it might be true, record companies are not relying only on a batch of songs for making a long term contact.
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Post by mrscully on Sept 14, 2024 8:41:01 GMT
Queen had a long-term contract with Trident that they decided to break. Trident took really good care of them in the early 70's, they gave them studio time, bought them instruments, clothings, sponsored the early tours but it still wasn't enough for Freddie. I'd suggest everybody to read Norman Sheffield's superb book instead of blindly relying on Freddie's side of the story ("Death On Two Legs") ;-) Norman described everything in great details (money, contracts, budgets...).
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Dimitris
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Post by Dimitris on Sept 14, 2024 9:04:12 GMT
Queen had a long-term contract with Trident that they decided to break. Trident took really good care of them in the early 70's, they gave them studio time, bought them instruments, clothings, sponsored the early tours but it still wasn't enough for Freddie. I'd suggest everybody to read Norman Sheffield's superb book instead of blindly relying on Freddie's side of the story ("Death On Two Legs") ;-) Norman described everything in great details (money, contracts, budgets...). Trident had a long time contract with them, I was reffering about what Roger said and probably a long term deal is happening, when the client - employe has proofs for his pontential. Norman invested to the band and provided them necessary tools. That tools were vital for his invesment. However it is known how record deals are taking advance music artists, it was a case of Little Richards, The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Kiss , Queen and the list continues up to today. Queen in their future contracts had as a term that Elekra and EMI will bloke Rainbow release. It took time for both sides to find peace about 1986.
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oreno
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Post by oreno on Sept 14, 2024 12:14:31 GMT
Going way off topic here (and should there be two threads anyway, one about SHA and another about early setlists?) - but there was a terrific 2 part radio documentary in the 1990s called 'S-S-Studio' which has seemingly never re-surfaced. Some great interview titbits with Brian, Roger and Norman Sheffield and talk about Queen's time there. I wonder if it's been transcribed or archived anywhere, I do have a poor quality cassette of some of it. genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/b514a853bdd5443fb1bdcc2e0afaf5f9
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cobohall
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Post by cobohall on Sept 14, 2024 13:21:23 GMT
Morning Sun is a cover of a 1970 pop hit. Don't Tease Me is a Cliff Richard song from 1960. The only one we haven't identified yet is "Reason". I don't think it could be because of the song Reason to Believe (by American folk singer Tim Hardin in 1965. It has since been recorded by many artists, most notably the Carpenters in 1970 and Rod Stewart in 1971) ....but to say something... Reason to Believe is a really good song. If that was the song on the list, I'd love to hear that. The Tim Hardin version is the one I like, Darin's is also good.
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georg
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Post by georg on Sept 14, 2024 13:35:26 GMT
Reason to Believe isn’t an unlikely possibility, as Smile played Tim Hardin’s If I Were a Carpenter frequently in their sets, and Freddie was a fan of Rod Stewart (Queen either played live or rehearsed An Old Raincoat Won’t Let Ever You Down in their early days).
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Post by The Real Wizard on Sept 14, 2024 17:38:59 GMT
23.08.1970 Imperial College, London Stone Cold Crazy Now That I'm Here Father To Son Doin' Alright She Makes Me Man, it's painful knowing these songs exist on tape from 1970 and that we'll almost certainly never hear them. We would learn so much about the band's musical development. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for the meeting when they decided to choose a cover song over any of these.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Sept 14, 2024 17:44:49 GMT
Queen had a long-term contract with Trident that they decided to break. Trident took really good care of them in the early 70's, they gave them studio time, bought them instruments, clothings, sponsored the early tours but it still wasn't enough for Freddie. I'd suggest everybody to read Norman Sheffield's superb book instead of blindly relying on Freddie's side of the story ("Death On Two Legs") ;-) Norman described everything in great details (money, contracts, budgets...). It is indeed a good read, but he nevertheless omits the fact that he had a Rolls Royce and a heated driveway by then, yet he wouldn't give John Deacon the money to put a down payment on a house. Even 50 years ago, never mind now, guys like him in the driver's seat were the rule in the music business, not the exception.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Sept 14, 2024 17:47:26 GMT
Going way off topic here (and should there be two threads anyway, one about SHA and another about early setlists?) - but there was a terrific 2 part radio documentary in the 1990s called 'S-S-Studio' which has seemingly never re-surfaced. Some great interview titbits with Brian, Roger and Norman Sheffield and talk about Queen's time there. I wonder if it's been transcribed or archived anywhere, I do have a poor quality cassette of some of it. genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/b514a853bdd5443fb1bdcc2e0afaf5f9 If you could find a way to get that digitized, that'd be fabulous.
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Sept 14, 2024 18:52:03 GMT
23.08.1970 Imperial College, London Stone Cold Crazy Now That I'm Here Father To Son Doin' Alright She Makes Me Man, it's painful knowing these songs exist on tape from 1970 and that we'll almost certainly never hear them. We would learn so much about the band's musical development. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for the meeting when they decided to choose a cover song over any of these. I guess we don't know the condition of the tape, which could well have deteriorated over 50 years, depending how it was stored. Maybe we're getting all that's salvageable?
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vh
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Post by vh on Sept 14, 2024 21:01:39 GMT
Queen had a long-term contract with Trident that they decided to break. Trident took really good care of them in the early 70's, they gave them studio time, bought them instruments, clothings, sponsored the early tours but it still wasn't enough for Freddie. I'd suggest everybody to read Norman Sheffield's superb book instead of blindly relying on Freddie's side of the story ("Death On Two Legs") ;-) Norman described everything in great details (money, contracts, budgets...). It is indeed a good read, but he nevertheless omits the fact that he had a Rolls Royce and a heated driveway by then, yet he wouldn't give John Deacon the money to put a down payment on a house. Even 50 years ago, never mind now, guys like him in the driver's seat were the rule in the music business, not the exception. Yes, it’s ok to read the details of a situation and decide that must be fact, but in Sheffield’s case it’s very much his version of a story Queen have repeatedly told through the years. Trident treated another band in the same way, Charlie, an interesting band with songs built around catchy choruses and tight harmonies. While they were charting in the US (mid/late70’s) Trident weren’t paying them, they were gigging to make Trident more money while they were on the dole (UK unemployment benefit) in London. By the mid 80’s their drummer was working as a drum tech for Iron Maiden. The Sheffield brothers may well have financed there artists production cost, but they did so to put money back into there own pockets while “forgetting” to pay the people who’s work they were selling.
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pg
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Post by pg on Sept 15, 2024 8:20:35 GMT
Wasn't "Now I'm Here" written while Brian was in hospital, making the list a fairly late one, relative to the release of SHA? You are correct about the "Now I'm Here" writing period. However, "Now That I'm Here" should not be confused with it. It's actually the early title of "Feelings Feelings". My comment was in relation to the original SHA songs list (#13) and the potential dating thereof, not the set lists discussed since. If NIH was a later composition, then it's more likely that the OTHER tunes were more complete than mere "ideas".
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pg
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Post by pg on Sept 15, 2024 8:28:31 GMT
Queen had a long-term contract with Trident that they decided to break. Trident took really good care of them in the early 70's, they gave them studio time, bought them instruments, clothings, sponsored the early tours but it still wasn't enough for Freddie. I'd suggest everybody to read Norman Sheffield's superb book instead of blindly relying on Freddie's side of the story ("Death On Two Legs") ;-) Norman described everything in great details (money, contracts, budgets...). It is indeed a good read, but he nevertheless omits the fact that he had a Rolls Royce and a heated driveway by then, yet he wouldn't give John Deacon the money to put a down payment on a house. Even 50 years ago, never mind now, guys like him in the driver's seat were the rule in the music business, not the exception. Trident were successful independently from Queen, the studio time was being booked by other artists. Plus, if Trident were exploiting Queen, why did both parties agree that there was money owing TO Trident when they parted? Norman Sheffields book is TOO detailed to be unconvincing, IMO...
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manymilesaway
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Post by manymilesaway on Sept 15, 2024 9:45:03 GMT
Man, it's painful knowing these songs exist on tape from 1970 and that we'll almost certainly never hear them. We would learn so much about the band's musical development. I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for the meeting when they decided to choose a cover song over any of these. I guess we don't know the condition of the tape, which could well have deteriorated over 50 years, depending how it was stored. Maybe we're getting all that's salvageable? Brian said that the show was listenable and that Justin Shirley Smith was working on the whole thing. What we bootleg fans consider "listenable" is very different to what Brian, a man who has spent months of his life refining mixes in a studio, would consider "listenable". That leads me to think that the tape probably sounds pretty good all things considered, maybe a bit worse than the original De Lane Lea demos? I think they simply just picked I'm A Man because they wanted tighter performances for Hangman and Doing All Right, and the already "fixed" performances from Rainbow covered everything else.
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Dimitris
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Post by Dimitris on Sept 15, 2024 10:17:14 GMT
It is indeed a good read, but he nevertheless omits the fact that he had a Rolls Royce and a heated driveway by then, yet he wouldn't give John Deacon the money to put a down payment on a house. Even 50 years ago, never mind now, guys like him in the driver's seat were the rule in the music business, not the exception. Trident were successful independently from Queen, the studio time was being booked by other artists. Plus, if Trident were exploiting Queen, why did both parties agree that there was money owing TO Trident when they parted? Norman Sheffields book is TOO detailed to be unconvincing, IMO... It was all those small hidden - trap terms where an investment from the company is a kind of loan to the band... Also those bloody sucking terms and legal labyrinth ways, ending to small windows that, lead many artists- bands to conced their rights. Queen were lucky. They got rid Norman and EMI paid 100k for free them. General the most music contract were and still is full of traping terms. Similar situation had happened with Elektra Records, when FG album was not recognised as an formal release, so Queen release Hot Space with Elektra while technically their contract was fulfilled. Then Queen signed with capitol and bought their freedom for 2m dollars. In addition GH 1981 in US was under Elektra Records copyright, that's why different tracklist and cover with Hollywood Records. It took many years up to 2004 for Queen regaining the original compilation in US.
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BrƎИsꓘi
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Sept 15, 2024 10:40:58 GMT
Trident were successful independently from Queen, the studio time was being booked by other artists. Plus, if Trident were exploiting Queen, why did both parties agree that there was money owing TO Trident when they parted? Norman Sheffields book is TOO detailed to be unconvincing, IMO... It was all those small hidden - trap terms where an investment from the company is a kind of loan to the band... we need some balance here. Managers, agents and record Companies are not Santa Claus. All of those advances are (of course) loans against future income. And, from any manager's point of view there's a huge risk involved. Why would they just shell out hand-over-fist not knowing if they'll ever get any of it back. There has to be a limit (at least in the 1-2yrs of how much is "advanced". By the time things got seriously bad (from Freddie's POV), they'd only had ONE significant hit (KQ) so Queen were still in debt to Sheffield and there was still no guarantee any of it would ever get repaid. Try and see this from a non-Queen perspective. Managers and Agents take huge risks. Have you any idea how many well-known bands had one hit and another (less so) follow up? The music industry is littered with songs we all know, and would usually ponder "whatever happened to *****?" All of those one-hit wonders constitute losses for Managers and Agents. Note: You wouldn't take out a business loan from a bank and then expect to NOT pay it back
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BrƎИsꓘi
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Sept 15, 2024 10:59:15 GMT
to add to the above, here's a United States (hugely edited) list of big ONE-HIT WONDERS from the 60s (150+)
The Cascades – "Rhythm of the Rain" (1963) Doris Troy – "Just One Look" (1963) The Kingsmen – "Louie Louie" (1963) The Ad Libs – "The Boy From New York City" (1965) Wayne Fontana & The Mindbenders – "The Game of Love" (1965) Cannibal & the Headhunters – "Land of a Thousand Dances" (1965) Unit 4 + 2 – "Concrete and Clay" (1965) The McCoys – "Hang on Sloopy" (1965) Barry McGuire – "Eve of Destruction" (1965) Crispian St. Peters – "Pied Piper" (1966)[287][288] The Troggs – "Wild Thing" (1966)[289][290] Los Bravos – "Black Is Black" (1966) ? and the Mysterians – "96 Tears" (1966) New Vaudeville Band – "Winchester Cathedral" (1966) Keith – "98.6" (1967) The Easybeats – "Friday On My Mind" (1967) Scott McKenzie – "San Francisco (Be Sure to Wear Flowers in Your Hair)" (1967) Robert Knight – "Everlasting Love" (1967) Strawberry Alarm Clock – "Incense and Peppermints" (1967) The American Breed – "Bend Me, Shape Me" (1968) The Lemon Pipers – "Green Tambourine" (1968) Hugh Masekela – "Grazing In The Grass" (1968) Mason Williams – "Classical Gas" (1968) Status Quo – "Pictures of Matchstick Men" (1968)[362][363][364] Vanilla Fudge – "You Keep Me Hangin' On" (1968) The Crazy World of Arthur Brown – "Fire" (1968) Max Frost and the Troopers – "Shape of Things to Come" (1968) The Equals – "Baby, Come Back" (1968) Desmond Dekker & The Aces – "Israelites" (1969) Zager and Evans – "In the Year 2525" (1969) The Youngbloods – "Get Together" (1969) The Archies – "Sugar, Sugar" (1969) The Cuff Links – "Tracy" (1969) Smith – "Baby It's You" (1969) Thunderclap Newman – "Something in the Air" (1969) Steam – "Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye" (1969)
They all represent potential losses to a manager/agent, the 70s (250+) and 80s (250+) yield even bigger lists.
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vh
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Post by vh on Sept 15, 2024 10:59:28 GMT
It is indeed a good read, but he nevertheless omits the fact that he had a Rolls Royce and a heated driveway by then, yet he wouldn't give John Deacon the money to put a down payment on a house. Even 50 years ago, never mind now, guys like him in the driver's seat were the rule in the music business, not the exception. Trident were successful independently from Queen, the studio time was being booked by other artists. Plus, if Trident were exploiting Queen, why did both parties agree that there was money owing TO Trident when they parted? Norman Sheffields book is TOO detailed to be unconvincing, IMO... The other side of this is that John Read found enough money to o ok pay of the Trident Contract, take a cut for himself (usual managers fee) take on new staff dedicated to Queen pay production costs for tours and albums and put a shit ton of money in the hands of the band. What did read do that was different. . . Oh yes he looked after and ran the business side of Queen properly and didn’t rip them off. Sheffield’s book is detailed but it’s his side of the story. The band Charlie that I mentioned previously were ripped of by Trident, so it’s not just Freddie stamping his feet. Yes obviously there was money owed to Trident, they still had contracts with Queen which Read bought them out of. Why did Trident sign the original contract with EMI, it gave them compete control over “their” artists. The band were sign to a management contract and the management held the record deal. As I said John Read found enough money to pay everyone, and parted company with Queen (later) on good terms. Funny how the Sheffield brothers got so jumpy over Death On Two Legs and tried to take legal action over the lyrics, surly that in its self shows that they saw a parallel between those words and their actions.
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BrƎИsꓘi
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Sept 15, 2024 11:03:07 GMT
Funny how the Sheffield brothers got so jumpy over Death On Two Legs and tried to take legal action over the lyrics, surly that in its self shows that they saw a parallel between those words and their actions. or maybe that is a standard response to any such occurrence. if someone disrespects another, there has to be a counter response in order to protect reputation and standing?
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Dimitris
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Post by Dimitris on Sept 15, 2024 11:08:58 GMT
It was all those small hidden - trap terms where an investment from the company is a kind of loan to the band... we need some balance here. Managers, agents and record Companies are not Santa Claus. All of those advances are (of course) loans against future income. And, from any manager's point of view there's a huge risk involved. Why would they just shell out hand-over-fist not knowing if they'll ever get any of it back. There has to be a limit (at least in the 1-2yrs of how much is "advanced". By the time things got seriously bad (from Freddie's POV), they'd only had ONE significant hit (KQ) so Queen were still in debt to Sheffield and there was still no guarantee any of it would ever get repaid. Try and see this from a non-Queen perspective. Managers and Agents take huge risks. Have you any idea how many well-known bands had one hit and another (less so) follow up? The music industry is littered with songs we all know, and would usually ponder "whatever happened to *****?" All of those one-hit wonders constitute losses for Managers and Agents. I dont see it from Queen view, since I like chart sales and chart history, Queen sales had brounght back the investment since SHA in UK. Also they gained rights from other parts of Europe and a percentage of copyright from Elektra. Risk is their business and they know it, also have securety measures for that reason. In case of Queen or other artist is the that they were taken advanced by the management. Recently I found that, if Slayer had changed management nad terms to n their contract, they would have made any income....
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