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Post by anderssteen on May 13, 2020 11:25:49 GMT
(My first post here. Thanks to Golden Salmon for redirecting me from Queenzone.) I've always been a great fan of Rogers solo output especially the 1977 single (and the two first albums). I admired him for being able to make such a convincing doo-wop arrangement of the soul-funk track (I Wanna) Testify) by The Parliaments. If one cares to compare the two tracks it is obvious that Rogers version is a complete remake as only part of the original song is used. How did he come up with this unlikely idea? Well he didn't. The track on the A-side of Rogers 1977 single is indeed NOT "(I Wanna) Testify" by The Parliaments but "Women and Drinkin'" by The Persuasions. Admittedly the doo-wop group The Persuasions uses the chorus (the "I wanna testify-part) of the Parliaments track in their own song. Rogers track however is an almost note-for-note re-recording of the Persuasions song (with added instrumental parts). ================================= EDIT: There's more to Rogers re-recording than just note-for-note copying - I got a little carried away there. My apologies. ================================= The Parliaments released "(I Wanna) Testify in 1967 - Credits: D. Taylor / G. Clinton (writer / producer and singer of The Parliaments) The Persuasions released "Women and Drinkin'" in April 1977 (Elektra E-45396) - Credits: J. Lawson / D. Dashew (Singer / producer of The Persuasions) Roger released his single in August 1977 - Credits: Taylor / Clinton ((presumably) same credit as The Parliaments 1967 single) While I absolutely don't mind Roger having done a somewhat "cheap" cover version of a great song I do wonder how/why he/someone messed the credits up. Also I wonder if no-one stumbled across this before? (What does the liner-notes of "The Lot" say) Here's links to three great songs: The Parliaments - (I Wanna) Testify www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJW643hIKMw The Persuasions - Women and Drinkin' www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPInOtqMPI4 Roger Taylor - (I Wanna) Testify www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGwHKsyWLsU Anders
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Golden Salmon
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Post by Golden Salmon on May 13, 2020 11:36:07 GMT
The track on the A-side of Rogers 1977 single is indeed NOT "(I Wanna) Testify" by The Parliaments but "Women and Drinkin'" by The Persuasions. Admittedly the doo-wop group The Persuasions uses the chorus (the "I wanna testify-part) of the Parliaments track in their own song. Rogers track however is an almost note-for-note re-recording of the Persuasions song (with added instrumental parts). The Parliaments released "(I Wanna) Testify in 1967 The Persuasions released "Women and Drinkin'" in April 1977 (Elektra E-45396) Roger released his single in August 1977 While I absolutely don't mind Roger having done a somewhat "cheap" cover version of a great song I do wonder how/why he/someone messed the credits up. Also I wonder if no-one stumbled across this before? (What does the liner-notes of "The Lot" say) Here's links to three great songs: Anders Welcome! A really great first post Thank you for joining us. Just checked my "The Lot" booklet and it does mention "The Parliaments" as the song's origins.
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BrƎИsꓘi
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on May 13, 2020 11:45:58 GMT
well, the Persuasions' song is more or less covered. but then the Persuasions did lift the chorus from the Parliaments. so i suppose, to be wholly accurate - Roger's IWT is a "double cover" version.
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emrabt
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Post by emrabt on May 13, 2020 11:56:42 GMT
What a great thread.... A remixed cover of a reworking....
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onedunpark
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Post by onedunpark on May 13, 2020 12:22:09 GMT
(My first post here. Thanks to Golden Salmon for redirecting me from Queenzone.) I've always been a great fan of Rogers solo output especially the 1977 single (and the two first albums). I admired him for being able to make such a convincing doo-wop arrangement of the soul-funk track (I Wanna) Testify) by The Parliaments. If one cares to compare the two tracks it is obvious that Rogers version is a complete remake as only part of the original song is used. How did he come up with this unlikely idea? Well he didn't. The track on the A-side of Rogers 1977 single is indeed NOT "(I Wanna) Testify" by The Parliaments but "Women and Drinkin'" by The Persuasions. Admittedly the doo-wop group The Persuasions uses the chorus (the "I wanna testify-part) of the Parliaments track in their own song. Rogers track however is an almost note-for-note re-recording of the Persuasions song (with added instrumental parts). The Parliaments released "(I Wanna) Testify in 1967 The Persuasions released "Women and Drinkin'" in April 1977 (Elektra E-45396) Roger released his single in August 1977 While I absolutely don't mind Roger having done a somewhat "cheap" cover version of a great song I do wonder how/why he/someone messed the credits up. Also I wonder if no-one stumbled across this before? (What does the liner-notes of "The Lot" say) Here's links to three great songs: The Parliaments - (I Wanna) Testify www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJW643hIKMw The Persuasions - Women and Drinkin' www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPInOtqMPI4 Roger Taylor - (I Wanna) Testify www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGwHKsyWLsU Anders Excellent first post. This just great stuff. Thanks for this.
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cmi
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Post by cmi on May 13, 2020 12:23:33 GMT
Thanks for the thread! Will check it out.
'The Lot' and 'News Of The World' are the weakest Deluxe Box Sets ever in terms of any detailed information about the recordings. IMHO.
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Steve
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Post by Steve on May 13, 2020 13:07:18 GMT
Great discovery. Cheers!
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Post by saintjiub on May 14, 2020 1:09:56 GMT
Years ago I heard Women and Drinkin' during lunch at local greek themed fast food restaurant called Munchie P's. The owner has a large music collection going back to the '40s, and this restaurant played an eclectic mix of songs. It might have been The Persuation's' version, but I don't remember. Another time at Munchie P's I heard an old version of It's Only Make Believe (1959 Conway Twitty song covered by Brian May).
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Post by The Real Wizard on May 14, 2020 22:47:56 GMT
Great find !
Seb culled out this quote at the other place:
"We came back from America, and there's a sort of slack period, and I was a bit sort of bored, I had nothing to do, and I just went into the studio with our engineer Mike Stone and did an old song by The Parliaments. I've got an a cappella version, I just sort of heavied it up a bit and did it all by myself, just really as an experiment." - Roger, BBC 1977
Of course this was a very well calculated statement, as their PR chops were well honed by 77. But I'm surprised he said even that much, as the "a cappella" version he alludes to was just a few months old, obscure as it may have been.
As ever, creativity is the art of concealing one's sources. There are countless examples, not least the chorus of WWRY being from Aaron Copland. When confronted about it years later, Brian said "it must've come from the gods."
They all do it. Even McCartney. But I couldn't care in the least - in every one of these cases, they took something and either made it their own or made it better, or both.
Knowing now that Roger's version was more or less a straight lift doesn't make me like it any less. He was one talented mofo if a mere "experiment" produced something this good.
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Post by The Real Wizard on May 15, 2020 0:14:10 GMT
well, the Persuasions' song is more or less covered. but then the Persuasions did lift the chorus from the Parliaments. so i suppose, to be wholly accurate - Roger's IWT is a "double cover" version.
Yep, a cover of a cover. One thing I noticed Roger didn't incorporate into his version is the exact chord changes in the chorus. He changed the A-C-D-A progression to A-G-D-A (although the Persuasions used G as the bass note under the C chord). It makes a massive difference, as the former sounds much more gospel.
That's probably the best part of the Persuasions version, but Roger made all the right choices to move it over to the rock idiom. This bit could've just been a coincidence as he may simply have gone with the root note thinking that's what the chord was, but who knows. I still say he's criminally underrated as a writer and arranger.
All three takes are excellent. Can't possibly choose a favourite now.
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BrƎИsꓘi
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on May 15, 2020 7:44:36 GMT
Yep, a cover of a cover. One thing I noticed Roger didn't incorporate into his version is the exact chord changes in the chorus. He changed the A-C-D-A progression to A-G-D-A (although the Persuasions used G as the bass note under the C chord). It makes a massive difference, as the former sounds much more gospel. That's probably the best part of the Persuasions version, but Roger made all the right choices to move it over to the rock idiom. This bit could've just been a coincidence as he may simply have gone with the root note thinking that's what the chord was, but who knows. I still say he's criminally underrated as a writer and arranger.
All three takes are excellent. Can't possibly choose a favourite now. "takes" or "tracks"? I've always liked Roger's writing style. yes - his solo stuff (and the Cross) can be a bit hit and miss, as finished songs. but the song-writing is excellent. his style had a more grown up/American feel - in the same way that some UK bands sounded more American than British (Zep for example). Much of his 70s Queen writing also had that "American" feel too - and (to me) always felt like the more "mature" compositions in Queen's 70s catalog. His stuff was more down-to-earth and never too far from reality. Although it's easy to see why (see above sentence), it's also strange that he veered away from the soul/gospel style of the original. His early group (The Reaction) certainly had some soul/gospel influences: "Midnight Hour" "Land of 1,000 Dances" and "I Feel Good". By the 80s - he re-found a definite soul/dance groove - which was reflected in much of his work with the Cross: "Life Changes" "I Can't Get You Out Of My Head" "Ain't Putting Nothing Down" "Shove It" "Cowboys & Indians" "Love Lies Bleeding" and (of course) his "Future Management" single. Much of his 80s-era writing/composition/arrangements seems (to me) to fit nicely into the (adult) US rock bands/artists' divergence into dance and - in particular, a very "Eagles Long Run/One Of These Nights" / Frey & Henley 80s solo style. Curio No1: one of my dad's friend's used to run our local church youth club disco (around 1972/73. He was always bringing obscure (to me) records to play with the current hits. His "sets" usually included one or two soul/reggae tunes including Isaac Hayes, William Bell, Eddie Floyd, Archie Bell and the Parliaments. Curio No2: In 1978, a older friend from school had a party while her parents were away on holiday. A fellow Queen fan actually played the Roger vinyl version - asking people to try and guess who it was. Curio No3: back when I was a serious Queen collector (my stuff was all sold over two decades ago), and before i located and acquired a copy of Roger's IWT - I did buy a copy of the Parliaments' single (sadly now long gone) - on a yellow label. The song-writing credit (on the record label) for the Parliaments' tune is "Taylor/Clinton" (David/George) - as does Roger's cover version. So he's obviously crediting the original writers of the Parliaments' "I Wanna Testify" and not of The Persuasions' Lawson/Dashev ((Jerry/David) "Women and Drinking"Curio No4: The Persuasions were not averse to the whole "cover" thing themselves - their catalog is scattered with old songs. "Women and Drinking" (itself a part-cover) being the B-side of a cover of the Rivingtons' "Papa Oom Mow Mow" Curio No5: Zappa fans will know that the Persuasions actually did a Frank Zappa covers LP in 2000: Zappa was supposed to have heard them play "over the phone" in 1969. He then signed them to his record label. forty years later they paid tribute to Zappa by recording Frankly A Cappella: The Persuasions Sing Zappa
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Post by Chopin1995 on May 15, 2020 12:37:09 GMT
There are countless examples, not least the chorus of WWRY being from Aaron Copland. When confronted about it years later, Brian said "it must've come from the gods."
Just checked it. Wow! I never knew that.
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Post by Mack Mantilla on May 15, 2020 16:01:31 GMT
There are countless examples, not least the chorus of WWRY being from Aaron Copland. When confronted about it years later, Brian said "it must've come from the gods."
Just checked it. Wow! I never knew that. Interesting. Could you please provide a YT link?
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BrƎИsꓘi
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on May 15, 2020 16:48:42 GMT
Just checked it. Wow! I never knew that. Interesting. Could you please provide a YT link? the piece you're looking for comes from Copland's Fanfare for The Common Man ( you can hear a comparison here: www.whosampled.com/sample/111291/Queen-We-Will-Rock-You-Aaron-Copland-Fanfare-for-the-Common-Man/Copland's piece of music does crop up quite often in other music. ■ ELP - Fanfare For The Common Man (obviously) ■ Woody Herman - Fanfare For The Common Man ■ Grandmaster Flash - It's Nasty ■ Busta Rhymes - End of The World ■ DJ Aphrodite - Fanfare i think (can't be sure as it's subdued) Tenpole Tudor possibly sampled the opening notes for Swords Of A Thousand Men
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Post by Mack Mantilla on May 15, 2020 20:42:36 GMT
Interesting. Could you please provide a YT link? the piece you're looking for comes from Copland's Fanfare for The Common Man ( you can hear a comparison here: www.whosampled.com/sample/111291/Queen-We-Will-Rock-You-Aaron-Copland-Fanfare-for-the-Common-Man/Copland's piece of music does crop up quite often in other music. ■ ELP - Fanfare For The Common Man (obviously) ■ Woody Herman - Fanfare For The Common Man ■ Grandmaster Flash - It's Nasty ■ Busta Rhymes - End of The World ■ DJ Aphrodite - Fanfare i think (can't be sure as it's subdued) Tenpole Tudor possibly sampled the opening notes for Swords Of A Thousand Men Thanks a lot. I didn't know about it
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anij
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Post by anij on Sept 28, 2020 1:13:13 GMT
It was nice to see this posted here. I remember I was very surprised the first time I heard Women and Drinkin’ by the Persuasions because it is almost identical to Roger’s version of I Just Want to Testify and clearly not the song by the Parliaments. I sometimes wonder if Roger just got the two songs mixed up and no one ever pointed it out to him. I know that doesn’t seem possible, but it’s so obvious it’s the other song that it seems like that might be he only possible explanation. There was no internet back then and no YouTube. It would be interesting to hear what his response would be if someone played him the Persuasions song and asked him about it. Unfortunately being able to just ask Roger anything is impossible, so that’s not going to happen. Sometimes I wish they weren’t so isolated from everyone else and interacted more with their fans on social media like a lot of other actors and singers do nowadays. (I would also love to ask him to just put the entire locking himself in the cupboard story to rest. I have never believed it was true and find it silly so many people repeat it like it is.)
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chowder
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Post by chowder on Oct 26, 2020 10:18:19 GMT
One of my fav Roger solo singles to date. Am happy to have the original 7" singles from both NL and BE. Despite this I have still never heard the original song. Based on this thread I think I really need to do this soon.
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pg
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Post by pg on Oct 26, 2020 20:49:57 GMT
One of my fav Roger solo singles to date. Am happy to have the original 7" singles from both NL and BE. Despite this I have still never heard the original song. Based on this thread I think I really need to do this soon. So you've scrolled down this far, but haven't clicked the play button on the embedded YouTube videos? (Asking for a friend)
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Oct 26, 2020 20:59:08 GMT
One of my fav Roger solo singles to date. Am happy to have the original 7" singles from both NL and BE. Despite this I have still never heard the original song. Based on this thread I think I really need to do this soon. So you've scrolled down this far, but haven't clicked the play button on the embedded YouTube videos? (Asking for a friend) I read it that he replied to the thread, intending to view the video. I don't see the need for a sarky comment.
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pg
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Post by pg on Oct 26, 2020 21:19:33 GMT
Apologies for the misread
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Oct 26, 2020 21:33:15 GMT
Thank you.
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Post by Mr Mercury on Oct 27, 2020 12:31:30 GMT
As ever, creativity is the art of concealing one's sources. There are countless examples, not least the chorus of WWRY being from Aaron Copland. When confronted about it years later, Brian said "it must've come from the gods."
Brian must have been influenced by The Arrows and their 1975 hit I Love Rock N Roll as it has the same drum rhythm as WWRY, not that there is anything wrong in that either.
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Post by The Real Wizard on Oct 27, 2020 17:11:37 GMT
As ever, creativity is the art of concealing one's sources. There are countless examples, not least the chorus of WWRY being from Aaron Copland. When confronted about it years later, Brian said "it must've come from the gods."
Brian must have been influenced by The Arrows and their 1975 hit I Love Rock N Roll as it has the same drum rhythm as WWRY, not that their is anything wrong in that either.
Good observation, but hard to say. With the hi-hat it's just a pretty standard rock beat - I'm sure there are plenty of songs from the period with a kick on 1 and 2.
Side note: all I could hear in that version is how stiff the drummer sounds. The Joan Jett take is a million times better.
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Post by Mr Mercury on Oct 27, 2020 21:40:22 GMT
Brian must have been influenced by The Arrows and their 1975 hit I Love Rock N Roll as it has the same drum rhythm as WWRY, not that there is anything wrong in that either.
Good observation, but hard to say. With the hi-hat it's just a pretty standard rock beat - I'm sure there are plenty of songs from the period with a kick on 1 and 2.
Side note: all I could hear in that version is how stiff the drummer sounds. The Joan Jett take is a million times better.
Couldnt agree more regarding the Joan Jett take on the Arrows song
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cmsdrums
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Post by cmsdrums on Apr 14, 2021 15:14:24 GMT
I wonder if the authors of the Persuasions track are aware they are due some royalties (that have likely been paid to someone else)?!?
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