Dimitris
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Post by Dimitris on Sept 28, 2020 10:18:08 GMT
Sonically it's a major step below their previous few albums. It's mostly the drum sound that has it sounding flat. Musically it has its moments, but it's the first album where they start to lose their direction. Apart from Dreamers Ball and Fun It, the blending with other genres is no longer a cornerstone of their sound. And lyrically they're just nowhere near where they were a few years earlier. There are a half dozen solid tracks on Jazz, but given the choice between this and their 1974-76 output, there's no question where their creative peak was. With punk and disco happening (not to mention their singer heading into a dangerous netherworld of hedonism), they were a bit lost and Jazz was ultimately a miss. They'd do better with The Game, but apart from their hits they'd be largely out in the weeds creatively for the next decade.
Bottom line - if Queen broke up in the summer of 1978 for whatever reason, they'd still go down as one of the top ten rock bands ever. Little of what they did after that can change that, for better or worse. Those first six albums still stand the test of time.
Totally I agree with you. It was the years where everything was changing fast in music, even in music industry and in radio. Queen had huge success and wanted to sound interesting and new. I think that was difficult task for a band that gave every year a new album, with major hits and having established its sound trademark. From various interviews around that time, it seems to me that they were asked, if they feel to repeat themselves. From their answers, especially Freddie said that, he thinks in music writing have been better (maybe he refers to music theory than inspiration and ideas). I do believe that, if the production was better the album would not have lost part of its magic. |
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BrƎИsꓘi
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Sept 28, 2020 10:52:06 GMT
generally i like the album, but i still go back to my previous comparison with regard to the drum sound.
Roy Thomas Baker produced this album with Queen, he also produced The Cars debut album a few months earlier.
I still can't understand how the same producer produced such a crisp clear drum sound for the Cars and then four months later produced the drum mudfest for Jazz.
I can't believe that the 10 minutes extra running time (of Jazz) contributed in some way. 45 minute albums were quite common in the 70s. however, the Cars' debut @ 35 mins does somehow sound much cleaner.
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Post by jimmydean on Sept 29, 2020 2:54:00 GMT
I think i echo many here - album fell flat due to production, loss of focus + filler. Also, if they reworked the running order, dropped some of the weaker tracks - it would have helped, greatly.
Redux:
Side A
1. Mustapha
2. Dead On Time
3. Fat Bottomed Girls
4. Bicycle Race
5. Jealousy
Side B
1. Let Me Entertain You
2. If You Can't Beat Them
3. Dreamer's Ball
4. Don't Stop Me Now
5. More Of That Jazz (without the snippets)
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Sept 29, 2020 10:08:42 GMT
I think i echo many here - album fell flat due to production, loss of focus + filler. Also, if they reworked the running order, dropped some of the weaker tracks - it would have helped, greatly. Redux: Side A 1. Mustapha 2. Dead On Time 3. Fat Bottomed Girls 4. Bicycle Race 5. Jealousy Side B 1. Let Me Entertain You 2. If You Can't Beat Them 3. Dreamer's Ball 4. Don't Stop Me Now 5. More Of That Jazz (without the snippets) That's a brilliant reworking. The energetic stuff is more spread out. I've always felt the actual album was too heavy on the first half. And the other side didn't have enough action...it's dominated by Seven Days, Dreamer's Ball, Leaving Home Ain't Easy, and not enough variety spaced in between to give you a jolt, aside from Don't Stop Me Now and Dead On Time. And really, why didn't the band use LMEY as an opener? The way you've used it makes so much more sense. |
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The Real Wizard
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Post by The Real Wizard on Sept 29, 2020 14:55:01 GMT
I think i echo many here - album fell flat due to production, loss of focus + filler. Also, if they reworked the running order, dropped some of the weaker tracks - it would have helped, greatly. Redux: Side A 1. Mustapha 2. Dead On Time 3. Fat Bottomed Girls 4. Bicycle Race 5. Jealousy Side B 1. Let Me Entertain You 2. If You Can't Beat Them 3. Dreamer's Ball 4. Don't Stop Me Now 5. More Of That Jazz (without the snippets) Can't disagree with that.
I'd actually be fine with keeping In Only Seven Days. Lyrically it's pretty silly, but musically it's a beautiful piece - not least because Brian May takes what he did in the middle of All Dead All Dead a step further.
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The Real Wizard
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Post by The Real Wizard on Sept 29, 2020 14:57:21 GMT
Roy Thomas Baker produced this album with Queen, he also produced The Cars debut album a few months earlier. I still can't understand how the same producer produced such a crisp clear drum sound for the Cars and then four months later produced the drum mudfest for Jazz. It almost sounds like he wasn't there for half of it.
Or maybe it was by design, as they may have been increasingly more difficult to work with compared to three years earlier, for any number of reasons. I guess you'd have to ask him.
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georg
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Post by georg on Sept 29, 2020 15:53:05 GMT
For some reason, I don't hate the songs individually (imagine if the album sounded like News of the World), it's just the running order that doesn't work for me. Here's my revised Jazz:
Side 1:
1. Let Me Entertain You
2. Fat Bottomed Girls
3. Bicycle Race
4. If You Can't Beat Them
5. Dead On Time
6. More of That Jazz (no snippets)
Side 2:
1. Jealousy
2. In Only Seven Days
3. Dreamers Ball
4. Fun It
5. Leaving Home Ain't Easy
6. Don't Stop Me Now
Yes, I kicked Mustapha off – it's never been one of my favorites, though I can appreciate it from a songwriting, production, and arrangement standpoint. I also got rid of the snippets in More of That Jazz, because it makes an already lumpen song that drags even more lumpen and draggy, so snipping out a good 40 seconds or so (it ends at 3'43") makes a huge difference.
I kind of separated the album into a side of rock songs and a side of ballads, but obviously Side 2 suffers with Fun It. Don't Stop Me Now is a perfect album closer, and I don't really hate the sequencing of the original Side 2, so I kept it more or less as-is. I suppose in a pinch Fun It and Seven Days could be kicked off, but I quite like the latter, and if we're gonna have two Deacon songs we gotta have two Taylor songs, so Fun It stays.
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jo
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Post by jo on Sept 29, 2020 18:47:36 GMT
Let Me Entertain You is such an obvious opener that I always thought Mustapha was first to make it very clear, there isn't going to be any Jazz.
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Post by jimmydean on Sept 30, 2020 1:08:40 GMT
I think i echo many here - album fell flat due to production, loss of focus + filler. Also, if they reworked the running order, dropped some of the weaker tracks - it would have helped, greatly. Redux: Side A 1. Mustapha 2. Dead On Time 3. Fat Bottomed Girls 4. Bicycle Race 5. Jealousy Side B 1. Let Me Entertain You 2. If You Can't Beat Them 3. Dreamer's Ball 4. Don't Stop Me Now 5. More Of That Jazz (without the snippets) Can't disagree with that.
I'd actually be fine with keeping In Only Seven Days. Lyrically it's pretty silly, but musically it's a beautiful piece - not least because Brian May takes what he did in the middle of All Dead All Dead a step further.
agreed w In Only Seven Days - the lyrics blew it - however, I only excluded it because it doesn't fit the reworked tracklist i set up. More of that Jazz lyrics aren't anything special either... but it works well as an album closer... and so would Don't Stop Me Now. if we include Seven Days before it and remove More Of That Jazz... i prefer keeping Roger's voice to close an album. nice curveball and worked well to end Side 2 of NOTW. |
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NathanH
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Post by NathanH on Sept 30, 2020 6:53:32 GMT
I don't want to sound analytical but knowing the track listing for Queen's albums, I may have a reason why Let Me Entertain You didn't open the album.
There are three songs in my opinion that could've opened the album: Mustapha, Let Me Entertain You and Dead On Time. But on Queen albums the first songs on Side A and B are never written by the same person. So Dead On Time has to open a side so then that leaves either Mustapha or Let Me Entertain You to open the other side, or even possibly open the album.
In my opinion it just would feel weird to have Mustapha as a third or fourth song on the album with the vocals at the start. (Even on Deep Cuts 2 it was the first track.) Let Me Entertain You on the album just doesn't start off dramatically as it does live so perhaps that could be a reason why the band were reluctant. Having Mustapha with its dramatic and unusual vocals certainly stands out compared to Let Me Entertain You. Also, it's suggested now that Brian doesn't like Let Me Entertain You, in Tyler and Neil's rendition of the song, they said they tried to convince Brian to play the song on stage. That would've been in the last couple of years and it's been suggested that they tried playing the song in rehearsals when Q+AL were in South America 2015.
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BrƎИsꓘi
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Sept 30, 2020 11:17:08 GMT
Mustapha (for me) would've been a better fit as Side2 opener. I'd have opened with LMEY or IYCBT. a complete change of musical direction works really well when you flip the LP over - it's a physical process, so the expectancy of change works better, psychologically.
Mustapha would've grabbed the listener more as a Side2 opener. Other artists consciously did this to ensure the listener didn't get too comfortable during first listen. On first listen; Mustapha opens side 1 - the surprise is done, Mustapha opens side 2 the listener - having enjoyed Side 1, now gets a genuine WTF moment.
Some really impressive/immersive Side 2 Openers:
Beatles - Sgt Pepper: Within You Without You
Rainbow - Rising: Stargazer
Pink Floyd - DSOTM: Money
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Post by jimmydean on Sept 30, 2020 19:33:42 GMT
Mustapha side 2 does make more sense - for any other band - but for Queen with the added energy burst after the first verse - i still think it was the right decision. But totally agreed - it's alienating to hear that side 1-track 1.
other Side 2 openers:
LZII - Heartbreaker/Living Loving Maid
MJ's Thriller - Beat It
Back In Black - Back In Black
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NathanH
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Post by NathanH on Sept 30, 2020 20:08:23 GMT
The Chain on Fleetwood Mac's Rumours seems to be part of the epics in music history opening Side 2.
Personally if Queen did release a third single from Jazz (a worldwide release not just in the odd country), Mustapha should've been a single-only song. I'm not saying it to have been the single as I don't think it's a commercial song at all but it would've been a memorable B-Side like See What A Fool I've Been. (I've always felt it to be in the similar vein, they're both sort of tongue-in-cheek songs.) I think this way then the tracklisting on Jazz could've had more structure and integrity as I think of all Queen albums it has the worse. Other albums have odd choices but on Jazz the problem is throughout.
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BrƎИsꓘi
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Sept 30, 2020 22:01:49 GMT
Mustapha side 2 does make more sense - for any other band - but for Queen with the added energy burst after the first verse - i still think it was the right decision. But totally agreed - it's alienating to hear that side 1-track 1. other Side 2 openers: LZII - Heartbreaker/Living Loving Maid MJ's Thriller - Beat It Back In Black - Back In Black yep, they all work too. think I may have stumbled onto something. Beatles did it again: Beatles - Abbey Rd: Here Come The Sun There's more: Prince - Purple Rain: When Doves Cry Yes - Close to The Edge: And You And I Genesis - Duke: Turn It On Again Deep Purple - Machine Head: Smoke On The Water |
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Post by jimmydean on Oct 1, 2020 2:01:53 GMT
george harrison strikes again!
Add Sweet Emotion and Hangman Jury from Aerosmith to that list
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vh
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Post by vh on Oct 1, 2020 13:33:38 GMT
Roy Thomas Baker produced this album with Queen, he also produced The Cars debut album a few months earlier. I still can't understand how the same producer produced such a crisp clear drum sound for the Cars and then four months later produced the drum mudfest for Jazz. It almost sounds like he wasn't there for half of it.
Or maybe it was by design, as they may have been increasingly more difficult to work with compared to three years earlier, for any number of reasons. I guess you'd have to ask him.
It's a srange one, as well as Roy Thomas Baker, there were four pairs of ears in the studio, surely someone must have heard what was going to tape and what the mixing process was producing. After the superior drum sound on Races and News Of The World plus the huge tomtom sound produced by Jeff Griffon on the NOTW BBC sessions I'm amazed no one said "hang on Roy"!! |
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The Real Wizard
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Post by The Real Wizard on Oct 1, 2020 17:12:09 GMT
This thread is pretty well proof that Jazz is Queen's worst album of that decade. We wouldn't be doing this for their earlier output, because those albums are pretty well perfect as they are. This is the album where they become a singles band. Or, at best, it was a transitional album to that point. And it's not necessarily a bad thing - most of the rock bands crashed and burned after punk happened, while Queen survived for over another decade. Even if most of their albums after that were filler sprinkled with hits, they still managed to remain relevant, which is better than most of their peers circa 1975 can say.
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itsm
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Post by itsm on Oct 14, 2020 0:59:43 GMT
I like Jazz, but the song order could be better - Jealousy is almost bad because of the placement.
I think Brian has his best voice (on any song) in Leaving Home Ain't Easy. He's voice is second best in She Makes Me btw, I think.
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georg
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Post by georg on Oct 14, 2020 1:17:49 GMT
I like Jazz, but the song order could be better - Jealousy is almost bad because of the placement. I think Brian has his best voice (on any song) in Leaving Home Ain't Easy. He's voice is second best in She Makes Me btw, I think. I’m on mobile so I can’t emphasize your quote but I agree with your opinion on Brian’s voice – LHAE is easily his best vocal, followed by SMM. He hasn’t had a bad vocal performance, but those two are tops for me. |
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mike71
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Post by mike71 on Oct 14, 2020 16:26:09 GMT
This thread is pretty well proof that Jazz is Queen's worst album of that decade. We wouldn't be doing this for their earlier output, because those albums are pretty well perfect as they are. This is the album where they become a singles band. Or, at best, it was a transitional album to that point. And it's not necessarily a bad thing - most of the rock bands crashed and burned after punk happened, while Queen survived for over another decade. Even if most of their albums after that were filler sprinkled with hits, they still managed to remain relevant, which is better than most of their peers circa 1975 can say.
for all It's flaws I still like this album. I think It's their weakest of the 70's, but you could make the case It's better than any 80's Queen album. Jazz and The Game are close In Quality. A band In transition with a few more filler songs than usual. The album also had 13 tracks and could have excluded a few of those and still had 10 or 11 solid songs. I still don't Queen were a singles band yet on this album. The 3 hits were fine, but some of the non hits were better. |
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Raf
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Post by Raf on Oct 17, 2020 2:12:07 GMT
This thread is pretty well proof that Jazz is Queen's worst album of that decade. We wouldn't be doing this for their earlier output, because those albums are pretty well perfect as they are. This is the album where they become a singles band. Or, at best, it was a transitional album to that point. And it's not necessarily a bad thing - most of the rock bands crashed and burned after punk happened, while Queen survived for over another decade. Even if most of their albums after that were filler sprinkled with hits, they still managed to remain relevant, which is better than most of their peers circa 1975 can say.
I'm surprised we are doing this for this album, TBH. Though in my head, saying Jazz is Queen's worst album in the 70s says more about how great they were than about how "bad" Jazz might be.  Borrowing on someone else's point about this album being their Rubber Soul - which I assume means it was a kind of turning point, like RS was for the Beatles - I guess NOTW would fit that role better. I absolutely love NOTW and definitely like it better than Jazz, but (except for poor production) I suppose we can say about NOTW most of what we could about Jazz: songs getting "simpler" than they used to be in the previous albums, less varied genres, three radio-friendly sing-a-longs and several songs the band themselves never bothered to revisit... On the plus side, I dig Brian's guitar on both NOTW and Jazz. The previous albums showed his genius composer/arranger side, but at least to me these two albums are the ones where he sounds like a classic 70's guitar hero. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2020 9:08:25 GMT
Borrowing on someone else's point about this album being their Rubber Soul - which I assume means it was a kind of turning point, like RS was for the Beatles - I guess NOTW would fit that role better. I absolutely love NOTW and definitely like it better than Jazz, but (except for poor production) I suppose we can say about NOTW most of what we could about Jazz: songs getting "simpler" than they used to be in the previous albums, less varied genres, three radio-friendly sing-a-longs and several songs the band themselves never bothered to revisit... Firstly, I agree with you on the first part, NOTW was a turning point for them. From Opera Rock to rougher Rock and more rock guitar. However, stating that most of NOTW and Jazz is “simpler” is not what I would say. It’s Late has very much work done to it, Sleeping On The Sidewalk is an amazing switch of genre, All Dead, All Dead is definitely not simple, Sheer Heart Attack is a great rock song, Who Needs You is a pearl by John Deacon and definitely refreshing genrewise. Jazz is imo amazing except for the songs labeled as Roger’s. Mustapha is definitely a switch of genre, LMEY is a great rock song and better than WWRY, Dead On Time is one of my all-time favorites of the band and IOSD must have also taken a long time. |
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highlander
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Post by highlander on Oct 18, 2020 9:17:22 GMT
For some reason, I don't hate the songs individually (imagine if the album sounded like News of the World), it's just the running order that doesn't work for me. Here's my revised Jazz: Side 1: 1. Let Me Entertain You 2. Fat Bottomed Girls 3. Bicycle Race 4. If You Can't Beat Them 5. Dead On Time 6. More of That Jazz (no snippets) Side 2: 1. Jealousy 2. In Only Seven Days 3. Dreamers Ball 4. Fun It 5. Leaving Home Ain't Easy 6. Don't Stop Me Now Yes, I kicked Mustapha off – it's never been one of my favorites, though I can appreciate it from a songwriting, production, and arrangement standpoint. I also got rid of the snippets in More of That Jazz, because it makes an already lumpen song that drags even more lumpen and draggy, so snipping out a good 40 seconds or so (it ends at 3'43") makes a huge difference. I kind of separated the album into a side of rock songs and a side of ballads, but obviously Side 2 suffers with Fun It. Don't Stop Me Now is a perfect album closer, and I don't really hate the sequencing of the original Side 2, so I kept it more or less as-is. I suppose in a pinch Fun It and Seven Days could be kicked off, but I quite like the latter, and if we're gonna have two Deacon songs we gotta have two Taylor songs, so Fun It stays. I had the same thought about LMEY being the opener and omitting Mustapha. MOTJ fits perfectly as a Side 1 closer as there is more "Jazz" to come. Very good tracklist! |
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ted
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Post by ted on Oct 18, 2020 13:58:46 GMT
Although Jazz is my least favourite Queen album from the 70's, generally I consider it to be superior to just about anything they released afterward. I consider Mustapha to be a strong if unusual opening track and I also quite like LMEY, FBG, BR, DSMN, LHAE, and MOTJ. I don't think there are any songs on the album that I don't like.
Ted
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justin07
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Post by justin07 on Oct 18, 2020 14:40:58 GMT
I still for the life of me cannot understand how they let that appalling drum sound be released. It really puts me off from listening to it. It sounds as if Roger did not give toss.
Probably the worst-sounding drum recording I have ever heard of any artist in my 51 years.
P.S. Did the addition of the kick drum on Jealousy's 2011 remaster show that the band and producer didn't care as much at the time?
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Oct 18, 2020 14:55:53 GMT
P.S. Did the addition of the kick drum on Jealousy's 2011 remaster show that the band and producer didn't care as much at the time? Oh I would think so. Jazz perplexes me. It really does. I love a lot of the songwriting...I think it's some of my favorite work. In fact it's one of my favorite albums. But the production and track order brings it down big time. It very well could have become my favorite album. |
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Oct 18, 2020 16:22:11 GMT
I still for the life of me cannot understand how they let that appalling drum sound be released. It really puts me off from listening to it. It sounds as if Roger did not give toss. Probably the worst-sounding drum recording I have ever heard of any artist in my 51 years. P.S. Did the addition of the kick drum on Jealousy's 2011 remaster show that the band and producer didn't care as much at the time? When you listen to the stems of FBG, the snare actually sounds like its been 'clipped'. Whatever possessed them to think that sounded good is beyond me. |
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Raf
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Post by Raf on Oct 18, 2020 16:29:33 GMT
I still for the life of me cannot understand how they let that appalling drum sound be released. It really puts me off from listening to it. It sounds as if Roger did not give toss. Probably the worst-sounding drum recording I have ever heard of any artist in my 51 years. P.S. Did the addition of the kick drum on Jealousy's 2011 remaster show that the band and producer didn't care as much at the time? Queen's worst, probably. But worst of all artists?  I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I couldn't resist  |
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Post by saintjiub on Oct 18, 2020 16:38:36 GMT
I happen to think that Jazz is a middle ranked album on par with News of the World or Queen. Certainly much better than Innuendo ... LOL
... Runs for cover for speaking such blasphemy.
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georg
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Post by georg on Oct 18, 2020 21:31:34 GMT
Just imagine Jazz with the drum and guitar sound from NOTW or even ADATR... Mike Stone was the answer, not Roy Thomas Baker.
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