BrƎИsꓘi
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Oct 18, 2020 22:06:04 GMT
Just imagine Jazz with the drum and guitar sound from NOTW or even ADATR... Mike Stone was the answer, not Roy Thomas Baker. yes. absolutely. but then how was RTB producing such a great drum sound on those early Cars' LPs around that time? |
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Oct 18, 2020 22:40:09 GMT
Just imagine Jazz with the drum and guitar sound from NOTW or even ADATR... Mike Stone was the answer, not Roy Thomas Baker. yes. absolutely. but then how was RTB producing such a great drum sound on those early Cars' LPs around that time? And the drums didn't sound bad on ANATO. |
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Oct 18, 2020 23:57:36 GMT
I still for the life of me cannot understand how they let that appalling drum sound be released. It really puts me off from listening to it. It sounds as if Roger did not give toss. Probably the worst-sounding drum recording I have ever heard of any artist in my 51 years. P.S. Did the addition of the kick drum on Jealousy's 2011 remaster show that the band and producer didn't care as much at the time? Queen's worst, probably. But worst of all artists?  I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I couldn't resist  Ouch. We have a winner right here. However, I might argue that at least Lars' drums sound like drums...well...garbage cans at the very least. The drums on Jazz sound dead and don't really open up much, if you know what I mean. |
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Oct 18, 2020 23:58:42 GMT
yes. absolutely. but then how was RTB producing such a great drum sound on those early Cars' LPs around that time? And the drums didn't sound bad on ANATO. Agreed. Everything sounded great on ANATO. But I think I prefer the drums on NOTW even more. |
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justin07
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Post by justin07 on Oct 19, 2020 9:04:22 GMT
Re. Jazz drum sound.
In the post 1960's era I really can't think of a worst/weaker sound on any other artist's recording but if anyone has examples I'll try and give them a listen.
RTB must have been over-ruled by the band. I would love to have been a fly-on-wall in the studio control room.
Has there been an interview with Roger or RTB about Jazz's production?
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mike71
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Post by mike71 on Oct 19, 2020 14:08:05 GMT
Although Jazz is my least favourite Queen album from the 70's, generally I consider it to be superior to just about anything they released afterward. I consider Mustapha to be a strong if unusual opening track and I also quite like LMEY, FBG, BR, DSMN, LHAE, and MOTJ. I don't think there are any songs on the album that I don't like. Ted I love Mustapha, but as someone else pointed out It would of been a good side B opener with Let Me Entertain opening the album. After the first 6 records Jazz, The Game and Innuendo would be next In line for me. What order would you put those 3 In?...I'll say Innuendo, Jazz, The Game. |
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Post by The Fairy King on Oct 19, 2020 14:18:14 GMT
Just imagine Jazz with the drum and guitar sound from NOTW or even ADATR... Mike Stone was the answer, not Roy Thomas Baker. Or Mack for that matter. |
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oreno
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Post by oreno on Oct 19, 2020 20:21:01 GMT
Jazz is a real "what the hell now?" album. They've ditched the big harmonies and orchestrations for NOTW - successfully. They've stripped the sound and songs back, produced it themselves but given it a far weightier and sometimes rougher sound than before. The problem is, when you ditch everything to freshen things up, how do you stay fresh? If you reverse what you've done, you just end up back where you started. So Jazz can't be NOTW part two, nor can it be a return to ADATR. So they bring Roy in to give them a fresh set of ears, and new ideas (in theory) as he's been away doing other stuff. So firstly, the bassy heft of NOTW is out. Maybe Roger wants a new drum feel, maybe it's done with an ear on what's in the charts, new wave, disco and so on. It's the complete opposite to NOTW, more tinny, clattery. It may even be a piccolo snare on several tracks. So there's a big change in sound. Secondly they bring back a lot of guitar orchestration, not to ADATR levels, but carefully placed here and there, and so quite striking when it happens - Mustapha, Bicycle Race, Dead On Time, Dreamers Ball. They also pepper the record with hard pop-rockers that are resolutely not orchestrated with guitar- Fat Bottomed Girls, If You Can't Beat Them, Let Me Entertain You, Fun It, More Of That Jazz. The last three sound positively anaemic compared to the four listed above. Then there's the 70s Queen standbys- A Freddie piano ballad, A Brian acoustic-ish ballad, an easy-listening John number. And then there's Don't Stop Me Now, a pop rocker that seems to leave the rest of the album eating its dust. Wisely used as the big finale before Roger's cynical coda, which seems to represent the band's mood regarding the record ever since - "we're done with all this". Freddie insisted the next album needed to be more focused, and they never (over) did things like they did on Jazz again.. until, arguably, Innuendo. No wonder Jazz is disliked, it doesn't know what on earth it is. Pop, rock, new wave, disco? They're trying to do all the above, while also trying to sound like a brand new group. (Hot Space side one is the polar opposite, focusing on a single style and doing away with the group altogether). The earlier 70s records cleverly aped The Beatles, but with rock/metal rather than rock n roll as the default - it wasn't such a big deal to absorb folk/music hall/gospel into a rock album since that approach had been trailblazed. NOTW is Queen's "Get Back" project, but we know what happened to the fabs after those sessions. Once Queen really tried to inhabit an unfamiliar, hostile late 70s musical landscape while retaining their Beatle/Prog inspired eclecticism (as someone above said, it's their White Album, only it's ten years too late), they got very lost, and it sounded like it. It took a combination of Mack, John Deacon's musical taste, the sound of the Sugar Shack and Freddie's immersion in clubland to show the way forward.. And I actually like Jazz..! Sorry that turned into an essay..  |
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Oct 19, 2020 21:35:39 GMT
Jazz is a real "what the hell now?" album. They've ditched the big harmonies and orchestrations for NOTW - successfully. They've stripped the sound and songs back, produced it themselves but given it a far weightier and sometimes rougher sound than before. The problem is, when you ditch everything to freshen things up, how do you stay fresh? If you reverse what you've done, you just end up back where you started. So Jazz can't be NOTW part two, nor can it be a return to ADATR. So they bring Roy in to give them a fresh set of ears, and new ideas (in theory) as he's been away doing other stuff. So firstly, the bassy heft of NOTW is out. Maybe Roger wants a new drum feel, maybe it's done with an ear on what's in the charts, new wave, disco and so on. It's the complete opposite to NOTW, more tinny, clattery. It may even be a piccolo snare on several tracks. So there's a big change in sound. Secondly they bring back a lot of guitar orchestration, not to ADATR levels, but carefully placed here and there, and so quite striking when it happens - Mustapha, Bicycle Race, Dead On Time, Dreamers Ball. They also pepper the record with hard pop-rockers that are resolutely not orchestrated with guitar- Fat Bottomed Girls, If You Can't Beat Them, Let Me Entertain You, Fun It, More Of That Jazz. The last three sound positively anaemic compared to the four listed above. Then there's the 70s Queen standbys- A Freddie piano ballad, A Brian acoustic-ish ballad, an easy-listening John number. And then there's Don't Stop Me Now, a pop rocker that seems to leave the rest of the album eating its dust. Wisely used as the big finale before Roger's cynical coda, which seems to represent the band's mood regarding the record ever since - "we're done with all this". Freddie insisted the next album needed to be more focused, and they never (over) did things like they did on Jazz again.. until, arguably, Innuendo. No wonder Jazz is disliked, it doesn't know what on earth it is. Pop, rock, new wave, disco? They're trying to do all the above, while also trying to sound like a brand new group. (Hot Space side one is the polar opposite, focusing on a single style and doing away with the group altogether). The earlier 70s records cleverly aped The Beatles, but with rock/metal rather than rock n roll as the default - it wasn't such a big deal to absorb folk/music hall/gospel into a rock album since that approach had been trailblazed. NOTW is Queen's "Get Back" project, but we know what happened to the fabs after those sessions. Once Queen really tried to inhabit an unfamiliar, hostile late 70s musical landscape while retaining their Beatle/Prog inspired eclecticism (as someone above said, it's their White Album, only it's ten years too late), they got very lost, and it sounded like it. It took a combination of Mack, John Deacon's musical taste, the sound of the Sugar Shack and Freddie's immersion in clubland to show the way forward.. And I actually like Jazz..! Sorry that turned into an essay.. Excellent post! You raise an excellent point regarding "Where do we go from here?" Because yeah, I'd say the band were a bit directionless, meandering around the studio with several oddities. They certainly couldn't go backward, and clearly didn't want to stick to the NOTW formula, and didn't have a clear vision yet for the future. I'd say that while the album feels directionless, that's also its greatest strength, and perhaps why I often come back to it. In fact, I'd say Jazz is my most frequently visited album! Yes, it meanders and has an odd flow, but it's still eclectic and challenges the listener, more so than on NOTW. Bicycle Race, for example, is actually quite complex; unusual chord progression (with multiple modulations) and the time signature fluctuates between 4/4 and 3/4. It's brilliant stuff. Plus, lyrically, though it's nonsensical, it certainly has its place in history. A time capsule, if you will. All in all, I really, really, really love this album. It's just a shame RTB and the boys went down the path of implementing a tinier sound. Just imagine if all those songs were produced the same way NOTW was beautifully crafted. Damn shame! |
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Oct 19, 2020 21:56:10 GMT
I quite liked the recent remix of Don't Stop Me Now (for the film). If they could do that for the rest of the album, it would be a killer. I'd rather have that than The Miracle box set, which I can only envisage as being a disappointment, if it ever materialises.
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georg
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Post by georg on Oct 19, 2020 22:17:28 GMT
I quite liked the recent remix of Don't Stop Me Now (for the film). If they could do that for the rest of the album, it would be a killer. I'd rather have that than The Miracle box set, which I can only envisage as being a disappointment, if it ever materialises. Agreed wholeheartedly. The film remix of DSMN was a revelation. |
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Frank
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Post by Frank on Oct 20, 2020 0:19:48 GMT
I quite liked the recent remix of Don't Stop Me Now (for the film). If they could do that for the rest of the album, it would be a killer. I'd rather have that than The Miracle box set, which I can only envisage as being a disappointment, if it ever materialises. Agreed wholeheartedly. The film remix of DSMN was a revelation. Chances are slim, but that would be absolutely amazing. |
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The Real Wizard
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Post by The Real Wizard on Oct 20, 2020 1:47:45 GMT
On the plus side, I dig Brian's guitar on both NOTW and Jazz. The previous albums showed his genius composer/arranger side, but at least to me these two albums are the ones where he sounds like a classic 70's guitar hero. Absolutely - those two albums see much of his finest work. It's largely buried in songs most people will never hear. C'est la vie.
At least they've heard Killer Queen. Some composers are typecast with things like Chariots of Fire.
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The Real Wizard
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Post by The Real Wizard on Oct 20, 2020 1:58:33 GMT
Re. Jazz drum sound. In the post 1960's era I really can't think of a worst/weaker sound on any other artist's recording but if anyone has examples I'll try and give them a listen. The "Trident" drum sound was garbage. Pick literally any one of hundreds of albums done there circa 1969-73 (including Queen's debut).
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The Real Wizard
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Post by The Real Wizard on Oct 20, 2020 2:20:14 GMT
I quite liked the recent remix of Don't Stop Me Now (for the film). If they could do that for the rest of the album, it would be a killer. I'd rather have that than The Miracle box set, which I can only envisage as being a disappointment, if it ever materialises. Agreed wholeheartedly. The film remix of DSMN was a revelation. It was - but how much of the guitar and drums were recorded circa 2018 vs 1978 ? I'd say most of it. |
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NathanH
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Post by NathanH on Oct 20, 2020 6:57:21 GMT
Jazz is a real "what the hell now?" album... The one thing I'll say is that Freddie said in a group video interview in 1979 that it's been their hardest year yet so I think it fits with what you put in your great analytical post. |
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Post by master marathon runner on Oct 20, 2020 7:02:05 GMT
Love Jazz, a lot more than some of their more successful efforts!
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Post by master marathon runner on Oct 20, 2020 7:06:47 GMT
Did anyone ever hear Brian's interview re 'Dead on Time'?
I never personally heard it but my 'Queen pal' did and basically, Brian stated that in a way, it was 'Keep Yourself Alive' part 2.
Interesting point as regards the song structure.
It may have been a BBC snippet.
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Lord Fickle
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Post by Lord Fickle on Oct 20, 2020 8:34:30 GMT
Agreed wholeheartedly. The film remix of DSMN was a revelation. It was - but how much of the guitar and drums were recorded circa 2018 vs 1978 ? I'd say most of it. The drums could have been remixed but there's definitely 'new' guitar in there. That's fine with me. If they want to re-record the whole thing, and just use the original vocals, that would be fine by me. We'd still have 'Jazz 1978' for those that want it, but 'Jazz 2018' would have been very interesting. |
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Ri
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Post by Ri on Oct 20, 2020 11:06:52 GMT
Jazz is a real "what the hell now?" album... The one thing I'll say is that Freddie said in a group video interview in 1979 that it's been their hardest year yet so I think it fits with what you put in your great analytical post. Which video interview was this please? |
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NathanH
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Post by NathanH on Oct 20, 2020 12:08:48 GMT
The one thing I'll say is that Freddie said in a group video interview in 1979 that it's been their hardest year yet so I think it fits with what you put in your great analytical post. Which video interview was this please? It's only a short extract of an interview and it's only with Freddie and Roger as it turns out: |
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Ri
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Post by Ri on Oct 20, 2020 12:22:53 GMT
Which video interview was this please? It's only a short extract of an interview and it's only with Freddie and Roger as it turns out: Thanks! Looks like Rotterdam 1979 interview. It was indeed the full band, Brian and John were just to the left. |
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NathanH
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Post by NathanH on Oct 20, 2020 13:17:06 GMT
It's only a short extract of an interview and it's only with Freddie and Roger as it turns out: Thanks! Looks like Rotterdam 1979 interview. It was indeed the full band, Brian and John were just to the left. It's not the usual pairing (Freddie and Roger) and I thought that it was during the European tour of 1979 but I wasn't sure where as there seems to be lots of clips like this from different cities and countries.
It just goes to show that not one band member liked Jazz, I don't think there is another Queen album that every point made about is negative.
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The Real Wizard
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Post by The Real Wizard on Oct 20, 2020 16:48:03 GMT
It just goes to show that not one band member liked Jazz, I don't think there is another Queen album that every point made about is negative.
It's not just the album and the music - it's also what was happening at the time. They were exiled to Switzerland, and Mercury was starting to become alienated from the rest of the band (the most enduring song on the album is directly about that). It was not a happy period - nor were the sessions for Hot Space. Nor was The Works tour. People are emotional beings, and with decades of healing they're bound to be left with blind spots (aka when Brian May forgets that they played It's A Hard Life live). Queen did far worse albums, but the first one they're going to shit on is Jazz - whether or not their emotional biases are conscious.
It's the same reason why Jimmy Page doesn't have much nice to say about The Song Remains The Same. The pressure of having become a bigger touring act than The Beatles led him to start taking heroin, and while they were on stage $200K was stolen from their hotel room safe. Not happy times.
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NathanH
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Post by NathanH on Oct 20, 2020 16:58:21 GMT
It just goes to show that not one band member liked Jazz, I don't think there is another Queen album that every point made about is negative.
It's not just the album and the music - it's also what was happening at the time. They were exiled to Switzerland, and Mercury was starting to become alienated from the rest of the band (the most enduring song on the album is directly about that). It was not a happy period - nor were the sessions for Hot Space. Nor was The Works tour. People are emotional beings, and with decades of healing they're bound to be left with blind spots (aka when Brian May forgets that they played It's A Hard Life live). Queen did far worse albums, but the first one they're going to shit on is Jazz - whether or not their emotional biases are conscious.
It's the same reason why Jimmy Page doesn't have much nice to say about The Song Remains The Same. The pressure of having become a bigger touring act than The Beatles led him to start taking heroin, and while they were on stage $200K was stolen from their hotel room safe. Not happy times.
It just goes to show even though Queen were just two years in the past making A Day At The Races, they are already a lot more similar in everything they were at that point to Hot Space which itself was still several years away. Even though News Of The World was legendary in its achievement, it marked the start of the downhill period for the group and I don't think they ever fully recovered from it. |
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The Real Wizard
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Post by The Real Wizard on Oct 20, 2020 17:04:22 GMT
It's not just the album and the music - it's also what was happening at the time. They were exiled to Switzerland, and Mercury was starting to become alienated from the rest of the band (the most enduring song on the album is directly about that). It was not a happy period - nor were the sessions for Hot Space. Nor was The Works tour. People are emotional beings, and with decades of healing they're bound to be left with blind spots (aka when Brian May forgets that they played It's A Hard Life live). Queen did far worse albums, but the first one they're going to shit on is Jazz - whether or not their emotional biases are conscious.
It's the same reason why Jimmy Page doesn't have much nice to say about The Song Remains The Same. The pressure of having become a bigger touring act than The Beatles led him to start taking heroin, and while they were on stage $200K was stolen from their hotel room safe. Not happy times.
It just goes to show even though Queen were just two years in the past making A Day At The Races, they are already a lot more similar in everything they were at that point to Hot Space which itself was still several years away. Even though News Of The World was legendary in its achievement, it marked the start of the downhill period for the group and I don't think they ever fully recovered from it. Most artists don't. They're lucky to get a few solid years of uninhibited creativity, and then they change so much (as does the world around them) that it doesn't flow as organically as it once did. People like Jeff Beck and Emmylou Harris are the exception.
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dysan
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Post by dysan on Oct 21, 2020 14:49:43 GMT
I love Jazz. I think people that parrot the subjective production issues probably just want to sound clever It's just the way it sounds. Decisions taken in a room 40 years ago. After the 'stripped back' sound of NOTW they were figuring out how to rebuild the Queen sound into new shapes and there is a line that leads directly though the next decade of output. Yes it's an odd album but to confuse that with poor is naïve. It is, in effect the first 80s Queen album and as such stands head and shoulders above most of them and for that it gets an 8/10 from me. |
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vh
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Post by vh on Oct 21, 2020 23:07:00 GMT
Did anyone ever hear Brian's interview re 'Dead on Time'? I never personally heard it but my 'Queen pal' did and basically, Brian stated that in a way, it was 'Keep Yourself Alive' part 2. Interesting point as regards the song structure. It may have been a BBC snippet. The interview you mention is probably Brian's appearance on The Old Grey Whistle Test, a black and white video of steam trains speeded up was used to play Dead On Time too. Not an official Queen vid but a BBC produced clip. in the interview Brian does reference Dead On Time being a kind of Keep Yourself Alive pt2. |
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georg
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Post by georg on Oct 22, 2020 13:34:41 GMT
I love Jazz. I think people that parrot the subjective production issues probably just want to sound clever It's just the way it sounds. Decisions taken in a room 40 years ago. After the 'stripped back' sound of NOTW they were figuring out how to rebuild the Queen sound into new shapes and there is a line that leads directly though the next decade of output. Yes it's an odd album but to confuse that with poor is naïve. It is, in effect the first 80s Queen album and as such stands head and shoulders above most of them and for that it gets an 8/10 from me. I have to remind myself that whenever I get too far up my own ass and I start slicing and dicing Queen albums, that they were always done to be a cohesive listen, and that the decisions made back then were, ostensibly, the right decisions. It's fun to play god and swap around songs from album to album, but I'm still never satisfied, and always return to the albums I know and love best. If I look through the songs on Jazz, it's got some of my favorite songs on it – Fat Bottomed Girls, Jealousy, Dead On Time, Let Me Entertain You, Leaving Home Ain't Easy, Don't Stop Me Now – and there's nothing vile or unlistenable; even Fun It and More of That Jazz have some redeeming qualities. As for the way it sounds, well, it WAS recorded in Switzerland and France, so it's going to have a different sound to it overall. I think the band didn't know what they wanted, and RTB had just produced The Cars' debut, so it had that classic rock meets new wave sound to it, and I imagine that's what Queen wanted, too. It just... didn't happen that way. Ah well – Queen's albums, for all their flaws, are Queen's albums, and we can't change that. I do think dysan you have a good point: this is Queen's first 80s album. Never thought of it like that! |
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BrƎИsꓘi
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Post by BrƎИsꓘi on Oct 22, 2020 13:42:23 GMT
Did anyone ever hear Brian's interview re 'Dead on Time'? I never personally heard it but my 'Queen pal' did and basically, Brian stated that in a way, it was 'Keep Yourself Alive' part 2. Interesting point as regards the song structure. It may have been a BBC snippet. it was Old Grey Whistle Test, Brian was in New Orleans and it was a phone interview with Anne Nightingale? and...talking of DOT: i like this (not sure about the vocalist), but the band pretty much nail it |
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